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1 Q. So did ever attend high school?
2 A. No.
3 Q. In or about 2003 did become pregnant with
4 her boyfriend
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did continue to massage Epstein after she
7 became pregnant, until she began showing her pregnancy?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did give birth to her son in 2004, when
10 was about 17 years old?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. After the birth of her son did
13 massage Epstein on a small number of occasions?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. What did tell you about that?
16 A. She was doing it to -- excuse me -- support her
17 baby.
18 Q. Was that because she needed the money?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Have you reviewed the proposed superseding
21 indictment marked Grand Jury Exhibit 6?
22 A. It's not in front of me right now, but I have
23 reviewed it.
24 Q. Have you reviewed the proposed superseding
25 indictment or would you like me to provide you with a copy?
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1 A. Yes, I reviewed it.
2 Q. Is the individual referred to as
3 Minor Victim 4 in the proposed superseding indictment?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Before you began investigating Epstein and his
6 associates was there a prior investigation by a different
7 FBI office in Florida into Jeffrey Epstein?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. During that investigation was interviewer
10 in 2007?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Have you reviewed a report from that interview?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. During that interview did describe
15 providing numerous paid sexualized massages to Epstein at
16 his Palm Beach residence when she was underage?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did mention Maxwell at all during that
19 interview?
20 A. No.
21 Q. During your more recent interviews with her in
22 2021 did explain why she did not mention Maxwell
23 during her 2007 interview?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. What did she say about that?
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1 A. She was not asked.
2 Q. She was not asked about Maxwell?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. Did she think that Maxwell was important to the
5 interview in 2007?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did sue Jeffrey Epstein in approximately
8 2008?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Was she deposed, as part of that law suit, in
11 2009?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Have you reviewed a transcript of that deposition?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. During that deposition in 2009 did state
16 that Maxwell was one of the people who would call her to
17 schedule massage appointments with Epstein?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Was asked any other questions about
20 Maxwell, or any follow-up questions about Maxwell, during
21 that 2009 deposition?
22 A. No.
23 Q. After that deposition did the law suit settle?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. During her more recent interviews did
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1 admit that she lied during her 2009 deposition?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And in particular, in her 2021 interviews did
4 tell you that after she stopped seeing Epstein she
5 began working for an escort service?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. During her 2021 interviews did admit that,
8 as part of that escort service, she engaged in paid sex acts
9 with men?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, during her 2009 deposition was asked
12 about her time working for an escort service?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did she lie and claim that she had engaged in no
15 sex acts and only non-sexual dates as part of that escort
16 service?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did she explain why she lied during her
19 deposition?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What did she say about that?
22 A. She was embarrassed.
23 Q. Was she ashamed to admit that she had worked as a
24 prostitute, during her deposition?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. Has struggled with drug addiction in the
2 years since her time with Epstein?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did she, in particular, become addicted to cocaine
5 and crack cocaine?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Was she also in a car crash after which she was
8 prescribed opioids?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And did she become addicted to opioids?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Between the ages of 18 and 26 was arrested
13 and convicted, on multiple times including misdemeanors and
14 felonies, for crimes arising out of her drug use, such as
15 drug possession and traffic violations?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Was her last felony an incident involving stolen
18 property when she pawned an Xbox that belonged to one of
19 's friends?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. As a result of that conviction did spend
22 several weeks in jail?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And was that the longest jail sentence she had
25 ever served?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. After was released from that jail sentence
3 did she go into drug treatment and obtain mental health
4 treatment?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Was that several years ago?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. What does do now?
9 A. She's a stay-at-home mother.
10 Q. Is she married?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. To someone other than
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Does she have three young children with her
15 current husband?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Does he work while she takes care of the kids?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Has received treatment for depression,
20 anxiety, PTSD, and schizophrenia, among other mental health
21 issues?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. As for her schizophrenia, does that manifest in
24 hearing voices telling her that someone's going to
25 take her children away and hurt her children?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Does believe that that comes from a fear
3 that what happened to her as a child could happen to her
4 children?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Is able to tell the difference between
7 those voices and reality?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Does she take medication to help her not hear
10 those voices?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Does currently take multiple medications
13 to help her manage her drug addiction and her mental health
14 issues?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do those include Methadone, Xanax, and medical
17 marijuana?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Is currently, or has she ever, sued
20 Maxwell?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Does she have any plans to do so?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Have you identified evidence that corroborates
25 account of her time interacting with Epstein and
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1 Maxwell?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did you interview ex-boyfriend,
4
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What is the current nature of and
7 relationship?
8 A. They have a child in common, and they talk very
9 minimally just because they have a child in common.
10 Q. So do they only speak when necessary to discuss
11 their teenage son?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. According to were he and
14 dating when was about 14 years old and Shawn was
15 about 17 years old?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did remember that he, and
18 and would hang out around
19 that time?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What di( recall about how came to
22 meet Jeffrey Epstein?
23 A. He recalls that the four of them were hanging out,
24 and they had mentioned -- and had mentioned
25 to them that could go to massage an old man and she
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1 would be paid money in return for that.
Q. After that what does remember happening?
3 A. He recalls that went to Epstein's house,
4 with to do the massage.
5 Q. Did recall bringing to Epstein's
6 Palm Beach residence on multiple occasions?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did remember receiving phone calls to
9 schedule appointments for to massage Epstein?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What, if anything, did remember about
12 meeting Jeffrey Epstein?
13 A. He recalls meeting him at his house Epstein's
14 house; he recalls that Epstein was there with his car, and
15 he was showing off his car; he recalls that Epstein was
16 flashy.
17 Q. What, if anything, did remember
18 saying about Maxwell?
19 A. He recalls that said Maxwell was rude and
20 nasty and that she was supposed to be teaching her how to do
21 massages.
22 Q. What did remember doing with the money that
23 received from Epstein?
24 A. They purchased drugs; and
25 Q. and would purchase drugs?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What did understand was happening when
3 was at Epstein's Palm Beach residence?
4 A. He understood that she was going in there to give
5 massages to Epstein but felt that there may have also been
6 something else going on.
7 Q. What did remember about bringing
8 other girls to Epstein's residence?
9 A. He recalls that she had brought other girls.
10 Q. Did he remember that both and the other
11 girls would get paid for going to Epstein's house?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Turning to the next slide. During the prior
14 investigation into Epstein did the other FBI office obtain
15 certain Federal Express records regarding Epstein?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Was there one in particular from October of 2002
18 that is up on the slide right now?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Would you please walk the grand jury through what
21 we see on this slide?
22 A. Sure. On the left-hand side it says, picked up
23 October 7th of 2002. The sender's address is on the bottom.
24 In the middle it says, Jeffrey E. Epstein; his address is
25 457 Madison Avenue, New York, New York. It was sent
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1 to -- the recipient being --
2
3 Q. And is name spelled instead CL
4 in the recipient column?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And the 457 Madison Avenue address, is that in
7 Manhattan?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. How old was on October 7, 2002?
10 A. Fifteen.
11 Q. Have you interviewed a man named
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Is that the same man about whom we read back
14 testimony from Special Agent earlier today?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. To remind the grand jury, did work for
17 Epstein in the 1990s and early 2000s at Epstein's Palm Beach
18 residence?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did recall meeting
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What did remember about how he first met
23
24 A. He recalls driving Maxwell to a massage
25 appointment at Mar-a-Lago. He was told to wait in the car
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1 while she got her massage. When she was done she got in the
2 car and they started leaving the property. At some point
3 during that drive, while still on the property, she was --
4 asked him to stop. She got out of the car and approached a
5 female who was wearing a uniform at the time. Maxwell spoke
6 to that female for about 20 minutes, and Mr. could
7 not hear the conversation. Maxwell then got back in the car
8 and drove back to Epstein's house. Shortly thereafter,
9 later that day, that same girl arrived at the house. She
10 soon became a regular at the house, and learned --
11 later learned -- her name to be
12 Q. And when said that became
13 a regular at the house, what was understanding of
14 why was coming to Epstein's Palm Beach
15 residence?
16 A. To give Epstein massages.
17 Q. Turning to the next slide. Have you reviewed
18 flight records for Jeffrey Epstein's private jet?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do those show multiple flights that
21 was on when she was under the age of 18?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Was Maxwell present for some of those flights with
24
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. Are two such flights reflected on this slide?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. I'd like to ask you to please walk the grand jury
4 through those two flight records.
5 A. On December 11th and December 14th of 2000, you
6 can see all the way at the bottom of the page, on the
7 left-hand side it's marked 11 and 14; the first flight goes
8 from PBI to Teterboro, which is Palm Beach in Florida and
9 Teterboro is in New Jersey. On that flight was Epstein,
10 Maxwell, and among others. The next
11 flight, on the 14th, goes from Teterboro to the
12 Virgin Islands. On that flight is Epstein, Maxwell,
13 among others.
14 Q. Based on your understanding of
15 date of birth, how old was on these two flights?
16 A. Seventeen.
17 Q. Turning to the next slide. Does this slide show
18 three additional flights that took with
19 Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell when she was 17 years
20 old?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Would you please walk the grand jury through these
23 three flights?
24 A. Sure. The first flight is January 26, 2001. On
25 that flight is Jeffrey Epstein, Maxwell, and
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1 among others. That was from Teterboro to
2 Palm Beach.
3 Down a little bit further there's another date
4 that appears to be January 28th of 2001, although the 8
5 seems like it's a little faded, but does appear to be late
6 January 2001. On that flight is Jeffrey Epstein,
7 Ghislaine Maxwell, and among others.
8 And the last flight is the 30th of January, also
9 2001; this flight's had Jeffrey Epstein, Ghislaine Maxwell,
10 and on that flight.
11 Q. Based on your review of flight records for
12 Jeffrey Epstein's private jet have you found multiple
13 additional flights in 2001 that took with
14 Epstein and Maxwell when she was still 17 years old?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Have you reviewed certain phone records from the
17 year 2004?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did those phone records show that on at least two
20 occasions in April and May of 2004 an employee of Epstein'.
21 called phone number?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Turning to the next slide. During the prior
24 investigation of Epstein was there a search executed at
25 Epstein's Palm Beach residence in 2005 by the Palm Beach
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1 Police Department?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q• During that search did the police recover message
4 pads from the residence?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Would you please explain to the grand jury what
7 message pads are?
8 A. Sure. So message pads, in this particular
9 instance, were pads that Epstein kept next to each of his
10 phones in his residence. If someone was to call, whoever
11 would answer that phone would jot down a note as to who the
12 person was that was calling, who they were asking for, the
13 time and date, and their phone numbers, and any specific
14 message they wanted to leave.
15 Q. Have you reviewed the message pads that were
16 recovered from Jeffrey Epstein's Palm Beach residence in
17 2005?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do those message pads include several messages
20 with name and/or phone number on them?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do those message-pad excerpts date between the
23 years 2003 and 2005?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Up on this slide right now, are those two examples
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1 of message-pad excerpts that reference
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Would you please walk the grand jury through these
4 message pad excerpts?
5 A. Sure. The first one says the message is for
6 Mr. Epstein. The date is 3/1/2003.
7 Q. I'm sorry, I think you said 3/1, did you mean
8 3/11?
9 A. I'm sorry. It's a little faded. 3/11/2003. The
10 message is from and the phone number -- also a
11 little faded here -- but says, . The second message
12 says it's for JE, Jeffrey Epstein; the date is March 16,
13 2003; the message is from ; same number as the
14 previous message is . The message on the bottom
15 says she wants to work.
16 Q. And just to remind the grand jury, did
17 tell you that there were times when she would call to ask to
18 massage Epstein so that she could get more money for drugs?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Turning to the next slide. Are these additional
21 message pad excerpts seized from Jeffrey Epstein's
22 Palm Beach residence in 2005?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Would you please walk the grand jury through
25 these?
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1 A. Sure. The first one on the left says the message
2 is for JE, Jeffrey Epstein. It's from
3 There's -- the date is missing on this one, but it says the
4 time is 12:30. The phone number is . The one
5 on the right says the message is also, again, JE for
6 Jeffrey Epstein. There's no date; the time is 3:15 p.m.
7 It's from , phone number The
8 message states, wants to work.
■
9 Q. During the search in 2005 of Epstein's Palm Beach
10 residence were additional messages recovered that are nor
11 included on these slides?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Additionally, were multiple massage tables seize°
14 from the residence in 2005?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q• Was at least one of those tables manufactured
17 outside of the state of Florida?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Have you reviewed photographs and a video
20 recording from that 2005 search of the Palm Beach residence?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Would you please describe for the grand jury,
23 based on those photographs and that video, what the massage
24 room in the Palm Beach residence looked like?
25 A. Sure. It was basically a master bathroom. There
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1 was glass doors which appear to go back into a shower.
2 There's a sink in the room; there is a couch in the room;
3 there's several door in the room, one of which leads into a
4 closet. Inside of the closet on the walls, also on the
5 walls of the massage room, there were multiple photographs,
6 some of them being of nude women.
7 Q. Was there also a massage table in that closet?
8 A. Yes. Photographed was a massage table inside of
9 the closet.
10 Q. Have you told the grand jury everything you know
11 about this case, or have you merely answered the questions
12 that I've asked you?
13 A. I've merely answered the questions.
14 Q. When you testified about conversations you had
15 with others, or documents you reviewed, did you testify to
16 the exact words or just the substance?
17 A. Just the substance.
18 Q. And are you willing to return to the grand jury if
19 the grand jurors have additional questions for you?
20 A. Of course.
21 MS. Then with the Foreperson's permission
22 I'll ask that the witness please be excused.
23 FOREPERSON. Yes, he may.
24 MS. Thank you.
25 (Witness Excused)
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1 (Time Noted: 12:15 p.m.)
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CERTIFICATE
3 I hereby certify that the foregoing is a true and
4 accurate transcription, to the best of my skill and ability,
5 from my electronic notes of this proceeding.
6
7 April 5, 2021
Date
8 Reporter
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