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111 
eon>, 
1 
people who would have relevant information in the civil 
runes 1 
strategy to sort of stall the investigation to say: 
a 15 n 
2 
cases, but when asked in deposition about 
021003 
2 
Well, we will get you Epstein; oh, we can't meet now; 
a IS 29 
3 
Mr. Dershowitz, he took the Fifth. 
onset 
3 
oh, we will get it now -- and then — and so forth. 
on 
4 
so I — I found it significant that for some 
num 4 
And one of the things that I noted from all 
011533 
5 
a it 35 
6 
people, he was willing to answer questions, but with 
regard to Mr. Dershowitz, he took his — he Invoked his 
es mos 5 
onto 
6 
that was that Mr. Dershowitz, as Mr. Epstein's attorney, 
never ultimately produced Epstein for a meeting with the 
on>, 7 
Fifth Amendment right against compelled 
02%14 
7 
Palm Beach Police Department, having made another offer. 
ono 8 
self-incrimination presumably because revealing what he 
02 WU 8 
Now, obviously, something could have happened 
o ,s4. 9 
knew about Mr. Dershowitz would, you know, cause 
02 *le 
9 
there. I mean, I don't -- you know, I don't know what 
a: is.. 10 
criminal -- criminal charges potentially to be filed 
a an 10 
was the communications and so forth, but as an attorney 
atisst 11 against him. 
awes 11 
trying to get information and unable to do that, I had 
nisi, 12 
There was a common scheme or plan, and I'll 
awn 12 
to make some reasonable inferences. 
72 ,000 13 
elaborate on that in a moment, but yeah, one of — so 
Ran 13 
And so one of the Inferences ! began to draw 
ow,. 14 
this was another point. I mentioned that — that there 
awn 14 
was that this was a stall tactic by Mr. Dershowitz, and 
ant u 15 
had been three efforts to get information from 
ass. 15 
In my view, potentially, an unethical one, but I 
antis 
16 
Mr. Dershowitz by way of a 2009 deposition request, a 
asp 16 
don't — I don't think we need to get into that in this 
02 is 2> 17 
2011 deposition request, and further follow-up 
a is* 17 
litigation. 
02 1024 18 
correspondence from counsel on that, and a 2013 document nun 18 
What I saw was a stall tactic going on, 
0»0 31 19 
request all propounded to Mr. Dershowitz that had not 
as.. 19 
and — and the reason I think it was a stall tactic, as 
02 IOU 20 
gone answered. 
en a 20 
we are sitting here now in, what is it, October of 2015, 
02 *0 35 21 
Yeah, and this was — yeah, I'm sorry, this 
caner 21 
and Mr. Epstein has never been willing to answer 
02 15 37 22 
slipped my mind at the time -- but When -- when we saw 
alas. 22 
questions about his sexual abuse of these girls. 
02 ea 23 
Mr. Dershowitz not responding to these answers, you 
sass 23 
And this was back in around -- what was it? 
02 144. 24 
know, maybe the mall didn't get delivered to him or 
cam 24 
I guess it would be 2005, 2006, you know, roughly a 
ono 25 
something like that. I don't — I suppose that's, you 
arta 25 
decade ago, Mr. Dershowitz was offering to make Epstein 
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02 150 
1 
know, a theoretical possibility. 
alter 1 
available. And then that never happened, and given the 
02 to to 
2 
But — but the reason I ruled out that 
non 
2 
ten-year pattern that — that developed — I guess I 
co isw 
3 
to 1465 
4 
possibility, first, it didn't seem likely; but secondly, 
there was a pattern of Mr. Epstein's associates evading 
wrists 
3 
ant. 4 
should go back. I'm sorry. Let me correct my answer. 
We should go back to December 30th, 2014. So 
001412 
5 
efforts to get information from them. 
canna 
5 
there -- there appeared 
to be about an eight-year period 
02 002 
6 
And so let me just go back to the earliest 
Ok1521 6 
of time during which Mr. Epstein had refused to answer 
to nos 
7 
Instance of that. According to the Chief of Police in 
011024 
7 
any questions about his sexual abuse of girls and yet 
02 **a 
8 
a nn 9 
the Palm Beach — of the Palm Beach Police Department, 
Mr. Dershowitz had said that he would make available 
arum 
8 
anal 9 
Mr. Dershowitz said, oh, it's just a scheduling Issue 
and — and we will get the Palm Beach Police Department 
02 9 il 10 
Mr. Epstein for questions about the — the sex, you 
asp 
10 
to — to, you know, to meet and — and learn all this. 
a o n 11 know, abuse that was going on. And, you know, 
MOW 11 
The other thing that I'm -- that I'm seeing 
10 1721 12 
Mr. Dershowitz had said to the Palm Beach Police 
021930 12 
here, so now there's — there's -- Mr. Dershowitz had 
w it n 13 
Department, yeah, we will make him available; no, we got 
alio 13 
been involved in concealing Mr. Epstein from the Palm 
07 1725 14 
ea 17 2.5 15 
to reschedule ft; you know, and then another time, 
reschedule, another time. And so there were multiple -- 
can 
14 
mow 15 
Beach Police Department, but there were others that had 
done similar sorts of things. 
0: *u> 16 
according to the Chief of Police, there had been 
Ansa 16 
So one of them was a Ghislaine Maxwell. I 
72 ,* 3. 17 
multiple, you know, requests to interview Mr. Epstein 
arms 17 
will just call her Glenn Maxwell. I think that's kind 
COO 21 18 
and Mr. Dershowitz had repeatedly said: Oh, yeah, we 
mess 18 
of the nickname I understand she goes by. 
07 1741 19 
will schedule that, and then it hadn't happened. 
awn 19 
So Glenn Maxwell — remember, she is — she 
07,743 20 
Now, obviously, there could have been a 
non 20 
is the one, you know, I think the record is clear, in — 
07 57 41 21 
situation there where, you know, an emergency had come 
021003 21 in -- in litigation that, you know, an allegation has 
071747 22 
up for Mr. Epstein and he wasn ' t able to make a schedule 
WM 01 22 
was the one that — that brought 
a 170 23 
or something like that. But what I saw was a — was a 
022008 23 
to the — into the sex trafficking, 
02 17 52 24 
anu 25 
pattern of offers to — to meet and then withdrawals, 
and that seemed to me to be a deliberately calculated 
amt 24 
n's 
25 
and was heavily Involved with — you know, on all the — 
not all the flights, but on many of the flights with 
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0220 lk 
1 
Jeffrey Epstein where -- where this seemed to be going 
to 
1 
what his excuse was, but, you know, evaded the 
ono 2 
on and was very dose to Epstein, staying at the mansion 
022231 2 
deposition and, in fact, later information came to light 
022222 
3 
frequently. 
e2713 3 
he was hiding out in, you know, in the mansion of 
onn 4 
And so she would, obviously, be -- I guess if 
on,, 
4 
Epstein while he's claiming he's unavailable for -- for 
onn 5 
noon 6 
you have Epstein at the -- the top of the — you know, 
the kingpin of the operation, Maxwell would be, you 
can* 5 
022230 
6 
deposition. 
So -- so this pattern of Mr. Dershowitz, you 
0220 )0 7 
know, a close second or certainly at, you know, the 
nag 7 
know, where there were three attempts to obtain 
0220 32 8 
higher echelon. 
022144 8 
Information from him, if that's all I had, I guess that 
0720)3 9 
So, obviously, someone who would have, you 
sane 9 
would have been one thing. But what I had was a pattern 
CI 20 35 10 
know, very significant information about, you know, the 
on« 10 
of people who were implicated in this sex trafficking 
0>MM 11 
sex trafficking, who were the other people that the — 
ono 11 ring evading questions, you know, quite in violation of 
027011 12 
the girls were being trafficked to, what kind of abuse 
012247 12 
court orders and depositions and things — I shouldn't 
071074 13 
was going on, you know, what kinds of sex toys were 
022254 13 
say court order — in violation of the deposition 
027044 14 
on.. 15 
being used to abuse them, because I think It was in her 
room or -- or adjacent to her room that many of these — 
omol 14 
rano 15 
notices that were being sent and agreements being made, 
you know, through counsel. 
07:047 16 
these devices were located, and so she would have had 
onaos 16 
And then in addition to that, I had this, so 
on,: 17 
very significant information to provide. 
ran is 17 
why — why would you think that, you know, there's this 
077017 18 
And so in connection with the civil cases 
one 18 
sex trafficking, you know, ring going on? It sounds 
0)>I CA 19 
that some of the girls had filed against Mr. Epstein, 
012117 19 
kind of farfetched. 
022102 20 
on, os 21 
her deposition was set, in fact, by my co-counsel, 
Mr. Edwards, and then there was some haggling over a 
sena 20 
wino 21 
Well -- well, one of the things that I had 
available to me on December 30th was a photograph that 
on. so 22 
confidentiality agreement, you know, what are we 
02202 22 
was widely available on the Internet, and that 
onn2 23 
gonna — and that had all been worked out, and then she 
02126 23 
photograph depicted three people. 
on, i4 24 
was set for a deposition and finally agreed, you know, 
came 24 
Glenn Maxwell, Prince Andrew, and 
022114 25 
to a deposition. 
en" 25 
the — at the time that It looked 
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own 1 
And Just shortly, you know, I think a couple 
tans 
I 
Ii 
n underage girl. She was not 
as o 2 
ono 23 
3 
of days before that deposition, she canceled. And well, 
she didn't cancel. Her — her attorney called to cancel 
022143 2 
sena 3 
dressed in formal attire. And Prince Andrew had his arm 
around her, I think If memory serves, and right next — 
Rain 4 
the deposition and represented that Miss Maxwell was 
nail 4 
smiling in the background is Miss Maxwell, and it 
RV 30 5 
outside the United States of America and had no plans to 
on r. 5 
appeared that that was a private residence, presumably 
on, h 
6 
return back to the United States. 
022111 6 
in London, dose to Buckingham Palace where — where 
o2a 35 7 
And so, at that point, the deposition was -- 
022400 7 
Prince Andrew lived. 
our* 8 
was not able to go forward. But it turned out that she 
0224441 8 
And so here was Prince Andrew with this 
ern o 
9 
had not left the United States for an extended period of 
02240 9 underage girl with Glenn Maxwell, the — the right-hand 
all 45 10 
time. She was spotted later at a wedding of a prominent 
072.96 10 
girl, if that's the right expression — I probably 
0221. 
11 
person In New York. 
6224o 11 
should say — strike that -- right-hand woman of --
(02160 12 
And so that was Maxwell fitting into this 
022411 12 
of — of Mr. Epstein -- that were there and somebody had 
01210 13 
pattern of, you know, Epstein was being told — you 
0244+e 13 
taken the photograph. 
ansi 14 
know, the Palm Beach Police Department being told by 
02241. 14 
Given the surrounding circumstances, I 
022457 15 
Dershowitz that Epstein will answer your questions, and 
owl, 15 
thought perhaps Mr. Fret ' 
tograph. 
012203 16 
then, you know, not -- not getting Information, Maxwell 
ewer, 16 
So that would have show 
exual abuse 
02220 17 
evading the deposition. 
0224M 17 
was not confined just to 
, 
to the 
once 18 
Jean Luc Brunel was another person who seemed 
ran 18 
New York mansion; it would have -- it would have 
022204 19 
an ,o 20 
to be very much involved in — in trafficking the girls, 
and it was the same situation. A deposition was set to 
ems 19 
anon 20 
presumably continued into London where one of, you know, 
the highest, most powerful persons in the governmental 
en,, 21 
try to get answers, you know, who is involved, which 
ware 21 
structure that — that exists in England was now 
022216 22 
girls are involved, what are their names, what's — 
0124'47 22 
involved in — in sexual abuse. 
an 17 23 
what's going on? 
ten 23 
And so that created grave concern about, how 
ono 24 
And so Brunei's deposition is set and then 
0214'52 24 
far did this sex trafficking ring reach; what were their 
022220 25 
he — he finagles out of It too. I don't recall exactly 
ten 25 
connections; what were their abilities to influence, you 
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fano 
1 
know, law enforcement agencies in those countries, you 
rams 1 
Mr. Dershowitz was trying to do the same 
an... 2 
know, in England, or law enforcement agencies In this 
02200 2 
thing and it is a difficult situation. 
cane 3 
canal 4 
country, through -- through power that, you know, 
somebody at that level, fifth I think In line to the 
onus 3 
ens sr 4 
A. 
All right. 
Q. 
So I was not trying to make light of the 
nn IS 
5 British Throne, would have, you know, presumably access 
came 5 
questions I'm asking you. 
Gana 6 
to levers of power that other people might not — might 
num 6 
A. Right. This Involves sexual abuse — 
nil 
7 not have. 
rano 7 
Q. 
I understand that. 
022171 8 
And so that Is the -- I believe is the -- the 
num 8 
A. -- of multiple girls. 
rarrrt 9 
information that I h d oval ab e o me on December 30th 
rant* 9 
O. 
I understand that. Your -- I understand the 
ran= 10 
involving not just 
t the entire sex 
022704 10 
allegations that have been made.
40 22 Ds 11 trafficking organl 
. 
02206 11 
A. 
And your side keeps attacking these girls. 
en 4, 12 
Q. 
Okay. And that -- just to clarify again, it 
012700 12 
That's why It's emotional for me. 
022142 13 
exhausts your refreshed recollection as to both the 
02022 13 
Q. 
That -- that part is not true, but I will ask 
02230 14 
information you were relying on as to the allegations 
rano 14 
questions --
an 48 15 
about 
to the allegations about 
02113 15 
A. 
I believe that part Is true. 
any 16 
other minors; is that right? 
0070 16 
THE WITNESS: I would like to take a break. 
*mu 17 
A. 
Correct. 
can is 17 
I'm sorry. 
onss) 18 
Q. 
So I don't have to ask you separately about 
0277 If 18 
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the video 
02206 19 
Roberts? 
02201 19 
record, 4:01 p.m. 
erns 20 
A. 
That's right No, and I gave you a heads-up, 
nmin 20 
(Thereupon, a recess was taken.) 
00426 21 that was going to be a long answer. 
01041 21 
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the video 
*note 22 
Q. 
You made Mr. Dershowitz look like an amateur. 
ma., 22 
record, 4:04 p.m. 
ran., 23 
If I could -- 
021047 23 
(Thereupon, Kenneth A. Sweder, Esquire, Alan 
012003 24 
MR. SCAROLA: I'm sorry. Uke a what? 
on.., 24 
M. Dershowltz and Carolyn Cohen left the 
ran.. 25 
MR. SIMPSON: Amateur, at the long answers. 
on... 25 
proceedings.) 
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02607 
1 
THE WITNESS: Well, I wasn't trying to -- let 
00040 
1 
MR. SCAROLA: The record should reflect that 
carte 2 
me be clear. I want the record to be dear: I 
anon 2 
Mr. and Mrs. Dershowitz have -- are no longer 
tntn 3 
was not trying to filibuster. You asked me a 
0200 3 
present. 
622412 4 
very direct question which was: I want to know 
02300 4 
MR. SIMPSON: Correct. 
an* a. 5 
everything that was in your memory on December 
023064 
5 
MR. SCAROLA: Thank you. 
0202 6 
30th, and as you can tell, this was a very 
02306 6 
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
02020 7 
important subject to me, and its very important 
ran 7 
Q. 
Mr. Cassell, would you agree with me that 
rann 
8 
to Miss Roberts, and I wanted to be 
02 llco 8 
accusing someone --
ern,. 9 
comprehensive. 
02310 9 
MS. McCAWLEY: Oh, I'm sorry. (just 
tans 10 
And I gave you the opportunity to say, 
onto4 10 
realized that she stepped out to get water, I 
02)62.1 11 
let's -- let's have a narrower question, and -- 
023106 11 
believe. I didn't ask. I'm sure it's 
nun 12 
but you wanted the broad question and that's why 
ex me 12 
probably okay --
nnv 13 
I did this, so I wasn't.. 
ono, 13 
THE WITNESS: R's all right. 
073630 14 
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
wrap 14 
MR. SCAROLA: It's all right. 
02030 15 
Q. 
Mr. Cassell, I apologize for attempting humor 
021111 15 
MR. SIMPSON: That's okay with you? 
an s. 16 
in this intense situation. 
02 31 10 16 
THE WITNESS: Sure. 
022633 17 
A. 
This is very Important to me. 
te p ii 17 
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
ono, 18 
Q. 
i -- I -- I -- 
023113 18 
Q. 
Would you agree with me that accusing a 
022636 19 
A. 
This Is not — this Is not something that I 
ea 3117 19 
person of -- an adult of engaging in sex with a minor is 
awn 20 
find funny. 
01 ,1 24 20 
a serious accusation? 
One 44 21 
Q. 
And -- well, It -- like I say, It's very 
0131 n 21 
A. 
Sure. 
02260 22 
important to Mr. Dershowitz, or Professor Dershowltz 
0010 22 
Q. 
And would you agree with me that the cause of 
can4s 23 
also. He was trying to answer questions. I'm not 
023133 23 
Victims' Rights is harmed and not furthered by false 
ars 0 24 
anon 25 
questioning that you were trying to answer my question, 
and 1 appreciate it 
0331n 24 
00141 25 
allegations of sexual abuse? 
A. 
Sure. 
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EFTA01116775

Exhibit 4 
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154 
IS? 
1 
APPEARANCES CONTINUED 
1 
IN 111E CIRCUIT COURT OF TIE SEVENTEEV7H 
2 
JUDICIAL CIRCUIT IN ttie FOR 
Telephonically on behalf of Jeffrey Epstein: 
2 
MUSD COUNTY. FLORIDA 
3 
3 
CASE NO. 
CACE 15.000072 
DARREN K. IN DYKE, PLLC 
4 
4 
BY: DARREN K. INDYKE, ESQUIRE 
5 
EIRICLEY J. WORDS and PALL G. CASSELL. 
575 Lexington Avenue 
6 
6 
4th Floor 
Plaintiffs/Counterclaim DefendentS. 
New York, New York 10022 
7 
vs. 
6 
Tel: 
212.971.1314 
8 
9 
AM M. OERSHCWIT2. 
7 
10 
Also Present: 
Defendant/Counterclaim Plaintiff. 
s 
11 
DON SAVOY, videographer 
12 
9 
BRADLEY J. ED WARDS 
13 
ALAN M. DE RSHOw IT2 (Telephonically) 
14 
VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF 
10 
15 
PAUL G. CASSEU_ 
11 
16 
TAKEN ON REHM, OF THE DUBOW' 
12 
17 
VOI IRE II 
RYES 152 to 1,15 
13 
18 
14 
16 
19 
16 
20 
Saturday. October 17. 2015 
17 
21 
8:32 0.m. - 12:14 p.a. 
18 
22 
19 
425 North Andreae Avenue 
20 
23 
Suite..2 
Fort Lauderdale, FICr1C18 
33301 
21 
24 
22 
25 
Theresa Remelt S. SR 
23 
24 
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(954) 331-4400 
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155 
1 
APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL 
1 
INDEX OF EXAMINATION 
2 
2 
WITNESS 
PAGE 
On behalf of the Plaintiffs: 
3 
SEARCY DENNEY SCAROLA 
3 
PAUL G. CASSELL 
4 
BARNHART & SHIPLEY, P.A. 
BY: JOHN SCAROLA, ESQUIRE 
4 
CONTINUED DIRECT EXAMINATION 
160 
2139 Palm Beach Lakes Boulevard 
BY MR. SIN PSON 
West Palm Beach, Florida 33409 
6 
6 
Tel: 
561.686.6300 
7 
Fax: 
561.383.9541 
e-mail: meo•seartylaw.com 
6 
INDEX TO EXHIBITS 
7 
On behalf of 
EXHIBIT 
DESCRIPTION 
PAGE 
9 
BONES SCHILLER a FLEXN ER, LIP 
10 
BY: SIGRID STONE McCAWLEY, ESQUIRE 
9 
401 East Las Olas Boulevard 
Cassell's J.D. Exhibit No. 4 - document 203 
11 
Suite 1200 
10 
produced by the witness 
Fort Lauderdale, Florida 33301 
12 
Tel: 
954.356.0011 
Fax: 
954.356.0022 
11 
Cassell's 1.0. exhibit No. S - copy of 
229 
address book 
13 
smccawley.bsfIlp.com 
12 
14 
Cassell's 1.0. Exhibit No. 6 - series of 
309 
On behalf of the Defendant: 
13 
e-malls, Bates numbered BE -510 - -514 
15 
WILEY REIN LLP 
14 
16 
BY: RICHARD A. SIMPSON, ESQUIRE 
AND: NICOLE A. RICHARDSON, ESQUIRE 
16 
17 
1776 K Street Northwest 
Washington. DC 20006 
16 
18 
Tel: 
202.719.7000 
19 
Fax: 
202.719.7049 
E -mall: rsimpson•wileyrem.com 
17 
20 
18 
Also on behalf of the Defendant: 
21 
COLE, SCOTT & KISSANE, P.A. 
19 
(Original Exhibits have been attached to the 
original transcript.) 
22 
BY: THOMAS EMERSON SCOTT, IR., ESQUIRE 
20 
9150 South Dadeland Boulevard 
21 
23 
24 
Dadeland Centre II • Suite 1400 
N lam 1, Florida 33156 
Tel: 
305.350.5329 
72 
23 
Fax: 
305.373.2294 
24 
26 
E-mail: thomas.scott0csklegal.cam 
26 
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2 
3 
4 
coccci 
5 
030003 6 
coo e? 7 
comic 8 
000011 9 
comic 10 
CO 00 10 11 
0003 111 12 
00 03 20 13 
COM 23 14 
030024 15 
000024 16 
000027 17 
°cool, 18 
CO C030 19 
03 CO 31 20 
rams 21 
rams 22 
030044 23 
156 
DEPOSITION OF PAUL G. CASSELL 
Saturday, October 17, 2015 
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are now on the video 
record. Today is Saturday, the 17th day of 
October, 2015. The time is 8:32 a.m. We are 
here at 425 North Andrews Avenue, Fort 
Lauderdale, Florida, for the purpose of taking 
the videotaped deposition of Paul G. Cassell. 
The case is Bradley J. Edwards and Paul 
G. Cassell versus Alan M. Dershowitz. 
The court reporter is Terry Tomaselli, and 
the videographer is Don Savoy, both from Esquire 
Deposition Solutions. 
Will counsel please announce their 
appearances for the record. 
MR. SCAROLA: Jack Scarola on behalf of the 
Plaintiffs. 
MR. SIMPSON: Richard Simpson of Wiley Rein 
on behalf of the Defendant and Counterclaim 
Plaintiff, Alan Dershowitz. With me is my 
colleague, Nicole Richardson, and Thomas Scott of 
Cole, Scott & Klssane, also for Mr. -- Professor 
con 24 Dershowitz. 
cocci* 25 
MR. SCAROLA: Before we begin the deposition, 
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COCOS, 
1 
we were informed for the first time yesterday 
won 2 morning of the existence of a recording of a 
coccoi 
3 telephone communication between Alan Dershowitz 
010106 4 and a woman identified only as Rebecca. 
cool 10 
5 
That Information was conveyed to us 
030413 6 subsequent to Professor Dershowitz's sworn 
000.44 7 
testimony that no recording existed, but now that 
0001.30 8 we know that the recording existed and that it 
030123 9 
was obviously made according to the 
0430123 10 representations given to us, prior to the 
0201x, 11 completion of the responses to our earlier 
01013, 12 
discovery requests, I would like to know whether 
0301 34 13 it is the Defendant's position that It is 
con 14 
necessary for us to propound a new discovery 
cool co 15 request to get information that dearly should 
000142 16 have been disdosed in response to the earlier 
000140 17 
discovery request. 
wow 18 
Is that the position that you're taking? 
000144 19 
MR. SIMPSON: First, Mr. Scarola, I believe 
*cols? 20 
you have mischaracterized Professor Dershowitz's 
cons, 21 testimony. You didn't ask the question whether 
00 01 SI 22 
he made a recording. Yesterday morning, he 
°mu 23 
provided that information in response to a 
ocsic. 24 
different question. 
030200 25 
MR. SCAROLA: His exact testimony was: I 
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000204 
03020 
01021:6 
CO 02 Ca 
030244 
004044 
000208 
000210 
158 
1 never thought to record it, but that's fine. 
2 
MR. SIMPSON: We don't -- we don't need to 
3 make that --
4 
MR. SCAROLA: We don't need to discuss that. 
5 The question is --
6 
MR. SIMPSON: What you're saying does --
7 
MR. SCAROLA: -- are you going to produce the 
8 recording without the necessity of a new request 
9 to produce, or will it be necessary for us to 
CO 02 13 10 file a new request to produce? 
mm,. 11 
MR. SIMPSON: As Mr. Scott indicated 
030217 12 yesterday, we will respond to you to the 
CO 02 10 13 discovery request. We will confer at a break and 
CO 0221 14 respond to that question. I don't want to take 
C00224 15 time on the record debating it. After Mr. Scott 
ratan 16 and I have conferred at a break, we will respond 
man 17 further to your question. 
max 18 
MR. SCAROLA: All right. So that the record 
con 19 is dear, it is our position that the recording 
030236 20 Itself, any evidence of any communication between 
con 21 Mr. Dershowitz and Rebecca and/or Michael, any 
notes with respect to any such communications, 
00 02 SO 23 text messages, e-mails, and an accurate privilege 
000241 24 log as to everything that is being withheld Is 
000301 25 responsive to the earlier request to produce, and 
ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SOLUTIONS 
(954) 331-4400 
000145 22 
159 
1 that the obligation was to have provided it to us 
2 previously and Is to provide it to us now. 
3 
We understand that you're considering that 
4 and you will respond, so we can proceed with the 
5 deposition. 
6 
MR. SIMPSON: Yes. And we disagree about 
7 that, and as you know, we have a motion to compel 
8 regarding your inadequate privilege log. 
9 
MS. McCAWLEY: Just before we begin, I'm 
sorry, I didn't announce my appearance for the 
record. Sigrid McCawley from Boies, Schiller & 
Flexner, and I have a standing objection that I'd 
just like to repeat on the record. 
MR. SCOTT: Feel better that you got that off 
your chest? 
MS. McCAWLEY: With r 
me. 
own 17 
With respect to my die 
she is asserting her attorney/client privilege 
000110 19 
with her attorneys and is not waiving it through 
000141 20 any testimony here today, and that I object to 
000144 21 any testimony elicited that would be used as a 
CO 03 47 22 
subject of waiver for her attorney/client 
000144 23 privilege. 
24 
MR. SIMPSON: Would you reswear the witness, 
25 please? 
ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SOLUTIONS 
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160 
Thereupon, 
2 
PAUL G. CASSELL, 
3 
having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified 
4 
as follows: 
5 
THE WITNESS: 1 do. 
CONTINUED DIRECT EXAMINATION 
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
Q. 
Good morning - 
A. 
Good morning. 
Q. 
-- Mr. Cassell. 
As of December 30th, 2014, had you ever met 
with 
en? 
Q. 
person? 
A. 
Once. 
Q. 
When was that? 
A. 
Approximately May 2014. 
Q. 
May of 2014? 
A. 
Yes. 
100422 21 
Q. 
Who was present for that meeting? 
Maio 22 
A. I'm just pausing for a second because 
don't — I think we're - 
Q. 
I -- I'm not --
A. 
- clearly not trying to get into 
ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SOLUTIONS 
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010414 24 
000410 25 
And how many times had you met with her in 
162 
000026 
1 
Q. 
And when you say 'all day," what time period 
00063, 
2 
are you referring to? 
CO sr 
3 
A. 
9:00 to 5:00. 
010533 4 
Q. 
9:00 to 5:00. Okay. Md was that through 
wan 5 
lunch; you Just stayed through eight hours; is that -• 
won 6 
what's your recollection of that? 
0303 41 7 
A. 
Yeah, I remember we were working very hard 
wan 8 on -- on it, so I think we had, if I recall correctly, 
man 9 
had lunch brought in and worked straight through that. 
0004 44 10 
Q. 
Any other meetings in person with 
rem 11 
Miss Roberts before December 30th of 2014? 
COMP 12 
A. 
No. 
cater 13 
Q. My telephone calls with her that you -- you 
030103 14 
had, obviously, before December 30th, 2014? 
D20007 15 
A. 
I believe there were a couple of — of 
0204 (4) 16 
telephone calls. 
wow 17 
Q. 
And can you tell us when those were? 
C00412 18 
A. 
Let's see. Roughly September 2014. Give or 
town 19 
take a month. I mean, you know, sometime after May and 
n 20 
before December 30th. 
mom 21 
Q. 
Okay. And were those telephone calls between 
000121 22 
just you and Miss Roberts, or was anyone else on the 
000431 23 
line? 
own 24 
A. 
No. It was just the two of — just 
own 25 
Miss Roberts and I. 
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161 
020411 
1 
attorney/client communication. 
O. 
I'm not asking you for what was said at this 
point. I'm Just asking you who was present. Pm going 
to ask you where It was, those kind of questions. 
A. 
Sure. Yeah. The main person who was present 
was Bradley 3. Edwards, my Co-PlaIntiff in this case. 
Q. 
Okay. And Miss Roberts obviously was 
present? 
A. 
Q. 
A. 
Yes. 
Anyone else present? 
You know, there were — this was at the 
Farmer, Jaffee office here, and so persons who were 
associated with the law firm were assisting, but those 
were the main people. 
Q. 
Okay. Do you remember any of those other 
people associated with the law firm who were present? 
A. 
Present for, you know, coming In and 
assisting, I believe Brad's assistant, Maria, was there, 
and perhaps others at the firm, but it was — it was 
basically Brad and I. 
Q. 
Was there anyone else who attended for the 
entire meeting or a substantial portion of the meeting? 
A. 
No. 
Q. 
Okay. How long did the meeting last? 
A. 
Approximately all day. 
ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SOLUTIONS 
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00002$
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Q. 
I'm going to ask you a question now, but 
tea 10 
before you answer it, pause, because I believe you will 
arum 11 
be instructed not to answer it --
.ova 12 
A. 
Okay. 
worn 13 
Q. 
-- but want to -- I think -- we disagree on 
were, 14 
the privilege --
00016715 
A. 
Sure. 
one 16 
Q. 
-- we believe it's been waived. 
wow 17 
My question is: During the meeting, did you 
won 18 
discuss Professor Dershovetz? 
000711 19 
MS. McCAWLEY: I'm going to object to any 
0407 IS 20 
discussion of what my client told you during any 
am PI 21 
situation where you were representing her as 
000721 22 
an -- an attorney. 
DA 07 22 23 
MR. SIMPSON: So-- and I think we had an 
a 0724 24 
agreement yesterday, if you follow your own 
Minn 25 
counsel's instruction on not answering, are you 
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1 
Q. 
Okay. And are you able to distinguish the 
2 
calls in your mind as two separate telephone calls? 
3 
A. 
I - I think there were either one or two 
4 
calls. I think there may have been two, but it — it 
5 
would not have been more than two that I can recall. 
6 
Q. 
Okay. How long did each of the telephone 
7 
calls last? 
8 
A. 
Less than five minutes. 
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164 
1 
also going to follow Miss McCawley's instructions 
2 
on not answering on behalf of --
3 
MR. S 
ollow the 
4 
instructions 
sel. It is 
5 
not his privi 
ethically 
6 
obliged to respect the direction coming from 
7 
8 
9 
I'm -- I'm simply, 
Mr. Scarola, making my record that the witness --
MR. SCAROLA: I understand that. 
MR. SIMPSON: Right. We disagree. 
MR. SCAROLA: I understand, but you can 
assume the same way I have authorized you to 
assume that Professor Cassell will follow my 
instructions, Professor Cassell will also follow 
all instructions concerning the assertion of 
attorney/client privilege exp 
by Miss McCawley on behalf 
MR. SIMPSON: All right. 
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
Q. So, Mr. Cassell, based on that, I will assume 
that If I ask you what you recall the discussion being 
at the meeting or at each of the phone calls, that 
you're not going to answer those questions; is that 
correct? 
ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SOLUTIONS 
(954) 331-4400 
020904 1 
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166 
and all that goes into the advice that they were 
giving her and surrounding that advice, so I 
would object to that. 
MR. SCAROLA: Could I have the question read 
back? 
(Thereupon, a portion of the record was read 
by the reporter.) 
MS. McCAWLEY: And I would like to clarify 
what case as well that you're referring to. 
MR. SIMPSON: All right. Let me ask the 
question, and -- and I will note for the record 
that yesterday, the witness testified that the 
fact that Mr. Boles was representing Virginia 
Roberts was significant to him. So it's sort of 
being used as a sword and a shield here, but I 
have only asked the question. I'll clarify. 
MR. SCAROLA: We haven't used it any way yet. 
MR. SIMPSON: Well, the -- the witness 
volunteered. Shall I put it that way? And we 
have a waiver. 
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
Q. But, in any event, my question is: Have you 
spoken -- before December 30th of 2014, had you spoken 
with David Boles about 
itions 
regarding Professor Dershowla? 
ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SOLUTIONS 
(954) 331-4400 
atom as 
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165 
MS. McCAWLEY: Yes. 
THE WITNESS: Yeah, obviously not. 
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
Q. Okay. 
A. I mean, I have a duty to my client which I'm 
going to respect. 
Q. All right. So we'll -- we'll take that up 
later with the judge. 
As of December 30th, 2014, had you spoken 
about this case with David Boles, and the question is 
just: Had you spoken --
MS. McCAWLEY: Objection. 
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
Q. -- not what the discussion was. 
MS. McCAWLEY: Objection. Its the 
common-interest privilege. 
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
0. I'm only asking if there was a discussion, no 
substance at all. Just, was there a discussion? 
MS. McCAWLEY: I'm going to instruct you not 
to answer that. 
MR. SIMPSON: Okay. You're taking the 
position that the fact of whether or not --
MS. McCAWLEY: Yes, because you're also 
trying to get into the timing of communications, 
ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SOLUTIONS 
(954) 331-4400 
o0 ten 
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1 
MR. SCAROLA: Without getting Into the 
woo 2 
substance of any such discussions, you can answer 
eviovi 3 
that question. 
gen 4 
THE WITNESS: My recollection is no. 
to ivio 5 
MR. SCOTT: I think you're right on that one. 
Go wn 6 
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
.on 7 
O. Okay. So the answer is, no, you had not 
8 spoken with him? 
A. My recollection --
MR. SCAROLA: Judge Scott has issued a 
ruling, so --
MR. SCOTT: I wrote several opinions on that 
actually. 
MR. SCAROLA: -- we'll proceed. 
THE WITNESS: Let me go back --
MR. SCOTT: In the Context of criminal 
lawyers. 
THE WITNESS: I'm trying to remember if I 
wrote any opinions on that one when I was a 
Judge. My -- I don't recall, but -- I don't 
recall. I -- my recollection is I had not 
personally spoken to David Boles before December 
30th, 2014. 
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
Q. Okay. Had you, before December 30th of 2014, 
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168 
spoken with any other lawyers at Mr. Boles' firm? 
A. My recollection Is, no. 
Q. And after December 30th of 2014, have you 
spoken with Mr. Boles abo 
allegations against --
MS. McCAWLEY: Again, I'm going to object. 
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
Q. -- Professor Dershowitz? 
MS. McCAWLEY: Sorry. I will let you finish. 
I'm objecting to this. I think it gets into 
the substance of conversations under the 
common-interest privilege, whether there was a 
conversation, but you're getting into the 
substance of what the conversation was about, and 
I think that is a violation of her -- her 
privilege. 
MR. SCAROLA: And just so that I can clarify 
our position on the record, I think that we can 
identify the general subject matter in order to 
support our position that It falls within the 
common-Interest privilege. So we are willing to 
answer the question about the general subject 
matter to support our assertion of 
common-Interest privilege, but not get Into the 
substance of the communications beyond that. 
ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SOLUTIONS 
(954) 331.4400 
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170 
1 
record, 8:47 a.m. 
2 
MR. SCAROLA: As it turns out, while we may 
3 
reach some issue of privilege at some point in 
4 
this discussion, the answer to your pending 
5 
question is, no, so there's no privilege concern. 
6 
MR. SIMPSON: All right. I'll -- I'll ask 
7 
the witness for the --
8 
MR. SCAROLA: Sure. 
9 
MR. SIMPSON: -- the -- the answer. I'll 
move to -- I'll reask the question. 
THE WITNESS: Sure. That will be good. 
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
Q. My question is: I believed you had already 
answered the question as to before December 30th, 2014, 
you had discussed Miss Roberts' allegations against 
Professor Dershowitz, and you said, no; is that right? 
MR. SCAROLA: David Boies. 
MR. SIMPSON: David Boles. I'm sorry. 
THE WITNESS: Before December 30th, no 
discussions that I can recall with David Boles. 
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
Q. After December 30th, 2014, did you have any 
discussions with David Boles about Professor Dershowitz? 
A. Can I --
MR. SCAROLA: You can answer yes or no. 
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171 
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MR. SIMPSON: And I believe Its the same 
question that was answered a moment ago for a 
different time period, and again, I'm not asking 
for any substance. I'm just asking whether, 
since Dece 
ave discussed the 
allegations 
Inst Professor 
Dershowitz. 
THE WITNESS: I would like to confer with my 
counsel on that question. It gets into a 
complicated legal issue that I'm not sure I 
can --
MR. SIMPSON: You want to confer on a 
privilege issue; is that right? 
THE WITNESS: I want to confer with my 
counsel before answering that question anyway. 
MR. SIMPSON: I Just want to clarify --
MR. SCAROLA: With respect to privilege. 
MR. SIMPSON: All light. As long as it's 
with respect to privilege, you're entitled to do 
that. 
THE WITNESS: Okay. 
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the video 
record, 8:45 a.m. 
(Thereupon, a recess was taken.) 
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the video 
ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SOLUTIONS 
(954) 331.4400 
mists 1 
to no 2 
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
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THE WITNESS: Yes. 
Q. You did. 
A. Yes. 
5 
Q. What was the substance of those 
6 
communications? 
7 
MS. McCAWLEY: I'm going to object to that. 
8 
You -- it's under the common-interest privilege 
and It's Virginia's privilege to waive, and she's 
not waiving it. 
MR. SIMPSON: Okay. 
MR. SCAROLA: We -- we assert the 
common-interest privilege with regard to the 
substance as well. 
MR. SIMPSON: All right. And that -- that 
will be -- that will be asserted as to all 
questions about the substance of the discussions 
osiso• 18 
with Mr. Boies; Is that right? 
0016„ 19 
MR. SCAROLA: I can't say that for sure. 
00%014 20 
MR. SIMPSON: All right. Let me ask my 
oleo 21 
question then. 
so is is 22 
MR. SCAROLA: And let -- maybe this -- maybe 
sow, 23 
this will help you and maybe it won't. But, 
00 15» 24 
obviously, there have been some public statements 
001617 25 
with regard to this general area. If the 
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001013 
1 
communications were not considered to be 
0016 /4 
2 
privileged at the time that they were made, we 
001(40 3 
can answer questions about that. If they were 
coins 4 
considered to be privileged at the time they were 
001041 5 
made, we can't answer questions. 
ooleo 
6 
So I can't tell you that there's a blanket 
CO NUS 7 
assertion. We need to hear the question. 
02100 8 
THE WITNESS: I need the question back. 
20 "0 
9 
MR. SIMPSON: All right. 
co Na 10 
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
0000 11 
Q. What did you discuss with Mr. Boles about the 
02 "33 12 
allegations against Professor Dershowitz? 
coma 13 
MR. SCAROLA: And that is common-interest 
win. 14 
privilege information and we do assert a 
0216o 15 
privilege. 
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
00001 17 
Q. Did you discuss with Mr. Boies any 
*yin 18 
discussions he had had with Professor Dershowitz? 
0%704 19 
MS. McCAWLEY: Objection. 
0217410 20 
MR. SCAROLA: Same objection. Same 
*eon 21 
instruction. 
001711 22 
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
1101712 23 
Q. Did you discuss with Mr. Boles any documents 
mini 24 that Mr. Boles had reviewed? 
mina 25 
MR. SCAROLA: Well, let me -- again, I don't 
ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SOLUTIONS 
(954) 331-4400 
173 
cans) 
1 
want to be asserting a privilege to questions as 
• 
2 
to which the answer is no, so you can answer 
01111 /1 3 
generally as to whether the subject matter was 
co 1700 4 
covered In any discussion that you had with 
0/042 
5 
Mr. Boies. 
Dino 6 
THE WITNESS: Okay. 
Diva 7 
MR. SCAROLA: Okay. If the answer is no. If 
03110 8 
the answer -- as I sink down In this chair, if 
to 
m 9 
the answer may be yes, you can't respond. 
CO 1150 10 
MR. SIMPSON: I -- I -- that's a new version. 
mini 11 
MS. McCAWLEY: I'm afraid -- yeah, I want 
to -- I'm sorry. I want to confer on that 
because I have an objection. 
/owe 14 
THE WITNESS: I have to say I want to confer, 
0411/04 15 
I'm confused, too, so let's take a short break. 
MR. SIMPSON: Again, you're conferring on the 
11101 17 
privilege now, not the substance? 
mina 18 
THE WITNESS: That's right. 
031400 19 
MR. SCAROLA: Can we go off the record? 
101114 20 
MR. SIMPSON: Yes. 
con.. 21 
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the video 
co ny 22 
record, 8:48 a.m. 
Di na 23 
(Thereupon, a recess was taken.) 
re /OM 24 
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the video 
022000 25 
record, 8:52 a.m. 
ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SOLUTIONS 
(954) 331-4400 
021700 16 
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1 
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MR. SCAROLA: Because of concern about a --
an inadvertent potential waiver of the 
work-product privilege, while it is not our 
intent to assert a privilege with regard to 
nonexistent communications, any effort to 
identify the subject matter of communications in 
the questions that you asked will require that we 
assert work-product privilege with regard to 
those questions. 
MR. SIMPSON: Okay. We disagree, obviously, 
on that position. 
MR. SCAROLA: We understand. 
MR. SIMPSON: So I will ask some additional 
questions and we will see if the witness answers 
them. 
MR. SCAROLA: If it begins: "Did you talk 
about," the answer is going to be an assertion of 
privilege. 
MR. SIMPSON: Okay. 
MR. SCAROLA: Okay? 
MR. SIMPSON: I'll ask the questions. 
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
Q. Did you discuss with Mr. Boies any meetings 
Mr. Boies had had with Professor Dershowitz? 
MS. McCAWLEY: Objection. 
ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SOLUTIONS 
(954) 331-4400 
00,10 12 
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1 
MR. SCAROLA: Objection. Same instruction. 
2 
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
3 
y 
5 
Q. Did you ' 
• 
"s 
views as 
4 to the credibilit 
MR. S 
6 
MS. McCAWLEY: Objection. 
7 
MR. SCAROLA: Same instruction. 
8 BY MR. SIMPSON: 
9 
Q. Did you discuss with Mr. Boies any 
allegations about sexual misconduct by Les Wexner? 
MR. SCAROLA: Same objection. 
MS. McCAWLEY: Objection. 
00044 13 
MR. SCAROLA: Same Instruction. 
002144 14 
MR. SIMPSON: That's the same question you 
15 
allowed to be answered. Old you -- let me ask it 
200 70 16 
a different way. 
002. 41 17 
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
002%40 18 
Q. Did you discuss, In any way, Les Wexner with 
012151 19 
Mr. Boles? 
CO211% 20 
MR. SCAROLA: Same objection. 
rorisi 21 
MS. McCAWLEY: Objection. 
2024" 22 
MR. SCAROLA: Same instruction. 
ootl .3 23 
MR. SIMPSON: He's instructed not to answer 
Dina 24 
whether that topic was discussed? 
0121a 25 
MR. SCAROLA: Yes. 
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00 lls? 
1 
MS. McCAWLEY: Yes. 
00 21 Sl 
2 
MR. SIMPSON: Okay. 
002122 
3 
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
002,02 
4 
Q. 
Did you discuss former Prime Minister Barak 
cones 
5 
with Mr. Boles? 
00220 
6 
MR. SCAROLA: Same objection. 
arm 
7 
MS. McCAWLEY: Objection. 
ono 
8 
MR. SCAROLA: Same instruction. 
CO 23 10 
9 
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
omit 10 
0372,4 11 
rota 
12 
omn 13 
Q. 
Yesterday, you mentioned that one of the 
reasons that supported your conclusion that it -- you 
had an adequate basis to allege in the joinder motion 
that the allegations against Professor Dershowitz was 
toms 
. 
es. 
032231 
you recall 
0122 If 
representin 
032230 17 
Q. 
And you said that because of how highly 
es, 
ma*, 18 
0.32245 19 
mass 20 
tons. 21 
022744 22 
007250 23 
01725, 24 
00
 
2,13 25 
regarded Mr. Boles was, I think you mentioned the Bush 
v. Gore case; Is that right? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
I used to work for his opponent in Bush v. 
Gore case. They are both very good. 
A. 
I'm 
trying 
-- I was trying 
to remember. 
I ' m 
sorry 
to take time, 
but who was the other 
lawyer? 
Q. 
Ted Olson. 
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037/ 54 
1 
A. 
Ted, that
' s right. 
That's... 
032715 
2 
Q. 
But that's a side note. 
00»62
3 
My question is: Given your high regard for 
032303 
4 
Mr. Boies, 
iews as to the 
0023 07 
5 
credibility 
mething that would 
032,10 
6 
be import 
he case? 
071 23 I?' 
7 
MS. McCAWLEY: Objection. 
002312
8 
MR. SIMPSON: Are you instructing him not to 
CO 23 IS 
9 
answer? 
0323'15 10 
MS. McCAWLEY: I mean, Is it a hypothetical? 
no 11 
MR. SIMPSON: No. I'm just asking whether 
03.21.54 12 
his views -- those views -- I'm not asking what 
032310 13 
the views are. I'm simply asking whether those 
002323 14 
views would be Important to him. 
002323 15 
MR. SCAROLA: You may answer that question. 
toms 16 
THE WITNESS: Yes. 
002325 17 
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
awn 18 
O. 
And if I -- I may have asked this already, 
0013 30 19 
but did you discuss with Mr. Boles his views as to the 
CO,,,. 20 
credibility of Miss Roberts? 
0023 34 21 
MS. McCAWLEY: Objection. 
39 22 
MR. SCAROLA: Same objection. Same 
(ono 23 
instruction. 
0023 4, 24 
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
Q. 
Prior to December 30th of 2014, had you 
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002401 
2 
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178 
discussed 
gations of sexual 
misconduct against Professor Dershowitz with Bob 
Josefsberg? 
A. 
Me personally? 
Q. 
Yes, you personally. 
A. 
No. 
Q. 
After December 30th of 2014, had you -- did 
you discuss with Mr. Josefsberg Ms. Roberts' allegations 
against Professor Dershowitz? 
A. 
Not personally, 
no. 
Q. 
You say not personally. Are you aware of 
someone else who had those discussions of -- with Mr. --
had any discussions on that topic with Mr. Josefsberg? 
MR. SCAROLA: To the extent that that 
question would call for any information that was 
communicated to you In the context of the 
common-interest privilege, you should not answer. 
THE WITNESS: All right. I'm not going to... 
MR. SCAROLA: So you -- you can answer it if 
any such communication came to you outside the 
context of the common-Interest privilege, but you 
may not include in your response any information 
derived from the common-interest privilege. 
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
Q. 
And my question right now Is not the 
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002517 
1 
substance. We will get to that. But, to your 
°Dna 
2 
knowledge -- put -- let me rephrase that. 
oariv 
3 
Did someone tell you that they had discussed 
002624 
4 
with Mr. Josefsbergs 
)osefsberg, the allegations made 
non 22 
5 
by Miss Roberts against Professor Dershowitz? 
10x34 
6 
MR. SCAROLA: You may only answer that 
eons 
7 
question to the extent that you had any 
toms 
8 
communication 
regarding that subject matter with 
Dona 
9 
someone outside the common -Interest privilege, or 
402540 10 
the attorney/client privilege for that matter. 
032S 40 11 
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
toms 12 
Q. 
I ' m simply -- I'm not asking for substance, 
002,51 13 
just the name If you did. 
co no 14 
MR. SCAROLA: Well, I understand that, but 
002.54 15 
following along the same lines as before, you are 
asking us to identify the subject matter of a 
sem, 17 
communication 
that is privileged. 
We won ' t 
0X0. 18 
answer questions regarding the subject matter of 
00240/ 19 
privileged communications, but if 
*ones 20 
Professor Cassell had a conversation with Sam 
onto 21 
Smith standing on the street corner about Bob 
one o 22 
)osefsberg, he can answer that question. 
come 23 
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
ton 24 
Q. 
Did you have a conversation with anyone 
002024 25 
just narrow question: 
Did you have a conversation with 
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180 
anyone who told you that they, that person, had 
discussed the subject matter o 
allegations against Professor 
Mr. Josefsberg? Just did you discuss it with anyone? 
MR. SCAROLA: Same objection. Same 
instruction. 
MR. SIMPSON: Okay. 
MR. SCAROLA: If you want to rephrase the 
question to ask lam whether he had such a 
conversation with anyone outside the 
attorney/client or work-product privilege, that's 
a question that we are obliged to answer. 
The question, as you phrased it, is a 
question that we are precluded from answering. 
MR. SIMPSON: That's a very strange notion of 
privilege. 
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
Q. But let me ask it this way: Did you discuss 
with anyone who is not an attorney -- let me rephrase it 
a different way. 
You testified yesterday about your 
understanding of the scope of the alleged 
common-interest privilege, correct? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. Putting aside the people within the scope of 
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cons 13 
cone 14 
wan 15 
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032813 17 
COMO 18 
00 29 00 19 
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had discussed with Mr. Josefsberg 
002910 22 
legations against Professor 
002020 23 
cons, 24 
MR. SCAROLA: Same objection. Same 
012923 25 
instruction. 
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tun 1 
helpful. So please just instruct him to answer 
012124 2 
or not answer, and we will let the Judge decide. 
012127 
3 
MR. SCAROLA: Well, the instruction -- I only 
0:1207/ 4 
gave the explanation in the hope that It might 
612131 
5 
facilitate the examination and allow you to move 
012.33 6 
to areas where you can get substantive 
genie 7 
information. 
0/2129 8 
I apologize if you consider it a waste of 
come 9 
time. So I will simply instruct Professor 
Cassell not to answer the question as phrased. 
If you ever want an explanation as to the basis 
of my instruction, I'm prepared to give that to 
you. 
MR. SIMPSON: Thank you. That -- that's a 
helpful way to proceed. 
MR. SCAROLA: Okay. 
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
Q. Have you -- well, let's start this way: Have 
you discussed with any of the attorneys within what you 
described as the common-Interest attorney/dient group, 
181 
007123 1 that privilege --
002723 
2 
A. 
Yes. 
eon 
3 
Q. -- that you identified — 
Mit> 
4 
A. Uh-huh. 
002171 5 
Q. -- your definition of It --
mini 
6 
A. Right. That's right. 
002731 
7 
Q. -- did you discuss the topic -- did anyone 
Dann 
8 
tell you they had discussed the topic of Virginia 
C0.27 3? 
9 
Roberts's allegations against Professor Dershowitz with 
co07.3 10 
Mr. losefSberg? 
cert.. 11 
MR. SCAROLA: You may not answer that 
C07111 12 
question to the extent the question still 
00,43 13 
encompasses attorney/client privileged 
cons 14 
communications. If you want to rephrase the 
0127 00 15 
question to exclude both common-Interest 
1021n 16 
privileged communications and attorney/client 
cows: 17 
privileged communications, that's a question we 
CO n co 18 
are prepared to answer. 
maul 19 
Otherwise, we are prohibited from answering 
102102 20 
the question as phrased as a consequence of it 
con m 21 
encompassing privileged communications. 
con u 22 
MR. SIMPSON: As he defined the 
012014 23 
common-interest privileged group, it included 
002117 24 
attorney/client, but I think at this point the 
032020 25 
explanations you're providing aren't really 
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183 
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
Q. Have you discussed with anyone who is not an 
attorney for Miss Roberts whether -- strike that. 
Has anyone who Is not an attorney for 
Miss Roberts told you that they had discussed with 
Mr. )osefsberg the allegations against -- by Virginia 
Roberts against Professor Dershowitz? 
MR. SCAROLA: Same objection. Same 
instruction. 
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
Q. Have you personally spoken with anyone else 
at Mr. )osefsberg's firm, other than him, about Virginia 
Robert's allegations against Professor Dershowitz? 
A. Not to my knowledge. 
MS. McCAWLEY: I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Can 
you read that back? 
MR. SCAROLA: Was a communication with anyone 
else in Bob )osefsberg -- Bob )osefsberg's firm, 
personal communication between Professor Cassell 
and any firm member of Bob 3osefsberg. 
MS. McCAWLEY: Okay. 
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
Q. And the answer was, not that you recall? 
A. Not to my knowledge. I don't know all the 
members of his firm, but I certainly have no 
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1 
sown 2 
00 30 40 
3 
Q. 
Okay. 
corn 4 
A. 
I -- I think the record should be dear, 
wows 5 I'm -- I'm an attorney and a law professor in Salt Lake 
0030 16 
6 City, Utah, and my understanding, he's an attorney here 
03304/ 
7 
in Florida. So I don't ordinarily interact with —
sows, 
8 
with, you know, attorneys in Florida, other than the 
013364 
9 
ones that I'm interacting with on — on this case. 
Ins 10 
MR. SCAROLA: Which is now occurring on a 
oi 30 32 11 
very regular basis. 
Lem: 12 
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
0 3101 13 
Q. 
Mr. Cassell --
03 31,1 14 
MR. SCOTT: No teaming, Mr. Scarola, please. 
tom, 15 
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
Q. -- did -- didn't you testify yesterday that 
CO 3100 17 
the fact that Mr. 3osefsberg's firm had filed a 
033:,0 18 
complaint against Miss Roberts, who is also your client, 
son,, 19 
to be significant to your evaluation of the case? 
wan 20 
A. 
Yes. 
con r 21 
Q. 
And if it -- if that was significant to 
cost is 22 
evaluation of the case, why are you telling us you don't 
C03120 23 
normally talk with attorneys in Florida? Doesn't he 
03)1 2$ 24 
represent -- at one point, represent the same client? 
sena 25 
A. Right. 
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recollection of talking to, you know, anyone who is — 
who was in his firm. 
003101 16 
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33 33 If 21 
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186 
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
O. 
Have you ever -- I'll rephrase the question. 
Have you ever discussed with Pt. Boles his 
views as to whether or not Miss Roberts is mistaken in 
her allegations against Professor Dershowitz? 
MS. McCAWLEY: Objection. 
MR. SCAROLA: Same objection. Same 
instruction. 
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
Q. 
Prior to December 30th of 2014, had you 
personally reviewed any of the flight logs that had been 
referred to in the testimony in this case? 
A. 
All right? 
O. 
My only question is whether you personally 
reviewed them. 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
What flight logs have you reviewed; how would 
you describe them? 
A. 
Both Exhibit 1 and Exhibit 2 that were shown 
to Mr. Dershowitz yesterday. 
Q. If -- I believe those were Exhibits 6 and 
A. 
Okay. 
-- but can we agree that flight logs were 
marked as exhibits? 
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wan 
1 
Q. 
And so wouldn't it be natural for you to be 
corn 
2 
speaking with -- at least within the realm of something 
03310 
3 
one might expect for you to speak? 
0)3133 4 
A. If I were a solo representative of Virginia 
torn 
5 
Roberts, that would be the case, but I think you're 
003140 6 
obviously aware that I have co-counsel on this case, and 
0131 0 
7 
there are other attorneys who are also participating in 
eons 8 
this matter. 
00310 9 
So I think it would be obvious that if 
0031.16 10 
there's a division of labor, it might not be along the 
03310 11 lines that you're suggesting. And I can't go any 
eoxa 12 
further without going into work product and other issues 
003130 13 
surrounding Miss Roberts' representation. 
ocinei 14 
Q. 
Has Mr. Boies ever told you that he believes 
is nos 15 
Miss Roberts was mistaken in her accusations against 
comas 16 
Professor Dershowitz? 
inane 17 
MR. SCAROLA: Same objection. Same 
00Y/11 18 
instruction. 
anon 19 
MS. McCAWLEY: Same instruction. 
03331) 20 
THE WITNESS: I'd Ilke to confer with my 
0333 n 21 
counsel on a attomey/dlent privilege issue In 
into 22 
connection with that question. 
oLrar 23 
MS. McCAWLEY: Can I Just write down the 
cone 24 
question and --
raw 25 
MR. SIMPSON: 
-- I'll rephrase it. 
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003330 
00 3331 
0033 30
003334 
coax 
00133? 
00330 
00 330 
03 3300 10 
03 33 30 11 
03 3.00 12 
03 34 03 13 
mato 14 
A. 
No. 
Lour 15 
Q. 
How do they not? What Is --what is the 
spun 16 
explanation for your conclusion in that regard? 
033416 17 
A. 
Right. We talked about this yesterday, so 
co slo 18 I'll Incorporate to speed things up some of the 
003122 19 
testimony that I gave yesterday. 
403433 20 
What the flight logs showed was, to my mind, 
41416 21 
evidence of potential doctoring, evidence of -- of 
souk, 22 
selective presentation of evidence. Mr. Dershowitz had 
corm 23 
presented to a law enforcement agency, at their request, 
003431 24 
apparently what I understood to be the -- the — I 
mu a 25 
understood that he had been requested by a law 
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187 
1 
A. 
Right. The two composite exhibits of flight 
2 logs I had examined previously. 
3 
Q. 
Okay. So the same documents that Professor 
4 
Dershowitz was shown at his deposition; is that right? 
5 
A. 
That's my recollection, yes. 
6 
Q. 
Okay. When did you review those? 
7 
A. 
So one of the reviews was in May 2014. There 
8 
may have also been an earlier review at an earlier — 
9 
earlier time, but I definitely remember reviewing them 
in May — approximately May 2014. 
Q. 
Would -- do you -- Isn't it true that those 
flight logs support Professor Dershowitts testimony 
that he was never on a plane witl 
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coma 1 enforcement agency to provide flight logs relevant to 
00527 
2 
this investigation. 
ON 17 
3 
And rather than providing all the flight logs 
con., 4 
that were available at that time, he appears to have 
03.3112 
5 
provided flight logs that went from January 2005 through 
out' 
6 
September 2005, knowing that he appeared on an 
semoi 
7 
October -- I may be off by one month here — but on an 
063004 
8 
October 2005 flight log. 
00350e 
9 
So that, to my mind, had indicated that 
seen 10 
Professor Dershowitz was providing selective information 
wen 11 
to law enforcement. Those concerns — this is, you 
0.3511 12 
know, there's — there's more to it. 
roe +0 13 
The other problem was that the flight logs 
ern 14 
that Mr. Dershowitz had produced were inconsistent with 
wen 15 
the flight logs that Dave Rogers, one of Mr. Epstein's 
con,, 16 
pilots had, so there were now inconsistencies on these 
aux 17 
flight logs. And it seemed to be -- it seemed to me to 
cone 18 
be surprising that during the period of time where 
19 
nvolved, Mr. Dershowitz was not 
roue 20 
ght logs. 
00 330 21 
Now, it is possible, I suppose, and that 
inns 22 
seems to be Mr. Dershowitz's position, that the reason 
west 23 
he's not on those flight logs is that he was not on 
mass. 24 
those flights. But given all of the information -- and 
was S7 25 
1 won't take your time this morning to go through — all 
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coat so 
1 
the information I had about this international sex 
come, 
2 
trafficking organization, it seemed to me that it was 
to 36 05 
3 
also possible that the sex trafficking organization, 
coma 
4 
which was represented by, you know, vast resources and 
00x0, 
5 
the ability to produce witnesses and documents and other 
wen 6 
information that would 
would cover up the existence 
wain 7 
of this organization, had gone through the flight logs 
0)3012 
8 
and had made necessary alterations to— to conceal the 
mum 
9 
scope of -- of the -- of the operation. 
con 10 
In addition to that, when I started to 
no 11 
compare the Dave Rogers' flight logs with the David --
con la 12 
excuse me. I am going to get a drink. 
COMO 13 
When I started to compare the -- oh, I'm 
tone 14 
sorry. I should be looking at the camera. 
con 15 
When I started -- when I started to compare 
con 16 
the Dave Rogers' flight logs with the Dershowitz ^ 
)1.1. 17 
which we call them the Dershowitz flight logs, which 
cone 18 
were the logs that he had produced, there were 
map 19 
Inconsistencies, and so it struck me as odd that there 
co,,., 20 
were these inconsistent flight logs. 
CO WO) 21 
The other thing that I noticed is, I don't 
00 37t6 22 
believe that Dave Rogers was the exclusive pilot for 
fence 23 
Mr. Epstein. And so I had a concern — excuse me. I'm 
3.0 24 
sorry. 
eon 0 25 
190 
C037 I6 
1 
that covered the Set were not just the David Rogers' 
2 flight logs, but there should be flight logs for other 
003722 
3 
pilots which were not apparently being produced. 
eon 4 
And so, In light of all that, what I was 
00027 5 
seeing was a -- a production of flight logs that was 
cony 6 
Incomplete. And then I started to hear from 
Gents 7 
Mr. Dershowitz that, well, these records prove 
ann 8 
conclusively I couldn't have done that. And I knew to 
se 37 40 9 
an absolute certainty, that the records were 
no 10 
inconsistent and inaccurate; and for somebody who had 
roue 11 apparently carefully produced these records, to 
airy 
12 
represent that these conclusively prove that he wasn't 
aura 13 
on the flights, seemed to me to be inaccurate 
mom 14 
Information. 
fens 15 
So that was -- those were the kinds of things 
son 16 16 
I was thinking about. 
an 
17 
Q. 
Mr. Cassell, is it your testimony --
ran 18 
MR. SIMPSON: Well, first of all, I move to 
Clint* 19 
strike the nonresponsive portion of the answer. 
roam 20 
DV MR. SIMPSON: 
co am 21 
Q. 
Mr. Cassell, is it your testimony that you 
coma 22 
have sufficient Information to conclude and allege that 
roue 23 
Professor Dershowitz falsified documents and gave 
COM if 24 
falsified documents toe prosecuting authority? 
con» 25 
A. It Is my belief that Professor Dershowitz 
ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SOLUTIONS 
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cones 2 
cons 3 
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wan 22 
con 23 
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cons' 25 
191 
provided Incomplete production to law enforcement 
agencies. 
Q. 
Is it your testimony under oath that you have 
sufficient Information to allege that Professor 
Dershowitz Intentionally provided false information to a 
prosecuting authority? 
A. It Is my position that he provided Incomplete 
information to a prosecuting authority and Inaccurate 
information to a prosecuting authority. 
Now, as to precisely what his state of mind 
was when he was producing the incomplete and Inaccurate 
Information, that remains to be this -- you know, that 
was one of the topics that I was hoping could have been 
covered in -- in the depositions here in the last two 
days, but unfortunately, there wasn't sufficient time. 
Q. 
Let me ask it a different way. You -• you 
gave a tong answer in which you described reasons you 
apparently believe that these flight logs were not 
merely incomplete, but that someone had false — 
falsified them. And did I understand you correctly? 
MR. SCAROLA: Excuse me. The question that 
was asked was limited to the time period prior to 
December 30th. The answer that was given was 
limited to the time period prior to December 
30th. 
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1 
Are you now asking for an expansion of that 
2 
response to include information that's been 
3 
gathered since December 30th? 
4 
MR. SIMPSON: I will take your objection to 
5 
the form. 
6 
Can we have the question back? 
7 
(Thereupon, a portion of the record was read 
8 
by the reporter.) 
nen 9 
MR. SCAROLA: And I object. The Question is 
vague and ambiguous because it fails to identify 
the time period about which you are inquiring. 
woos 12 
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
O. 
Mr. Cassell, as you sit here today, are you 
wen 14 
prepared, based on the Information you have available to 
CO 4021 15 
you, to assert that Professor Dershowitz intentionally 
cio en 16 
provided misleading or doctored documents to a 
coon 17 
prosecuting authority? 
00423? 18 
A. 
So based on all the Information I have today? 
woe 19 
Q. 
Yes. 
10 40 40 20 
A. 
Yes. 
00 404 21 
Q. 
What do you base -- what Is the basis for 
CO 4044 22 
that conclusion, and Include information up until today? 
00404 23 
A. 
All right. So, obviously, that's an 
cows, 24 
004051 25 
44407 10 
004009 11 
O 401413 
open-ended question. 
Q. 
I --just answer the question, please, as 
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C04201 
1 
Another thing that happened during the 
C04110 
2 
deposition, and I will not repeat what was said in the 
00014 3 
deposition, because there was immediately an objection 
034111 4 
from Ms. McCawley, but there were two points in the 
40019 5 
deposition where Mr. Dershowitz made representations 
oar 
6 
about what a New York Attorney David Boles would say, 
00422. 7 
and I'm not going into any —
nen 8 
Q. 
I -- I just want to say if he starts talking 
m13s 9 
about it — 
0.4221 10 
MS. McCAWLEY: No, -- I object to any 
024232 11 
reference — 
CO433 12 
MR. SIMPSON: -- then I get to ask all the 
00 QM 13 
questions if he should say anything. 
024244 14 
MS. McCAWLEY: I think he's Just 
40429$ 15 
acknowledging that -- I'm sorry. I Mink he's 
404237 16 
acknowledging that that occurred. I Object to 
eon 17 
any -- any discussion of any settlement 
moo 18 
communications in the context of that privilege. 
incur 19 
MR. SCAROLA: I don't intend to get into any 
034244 20 
settlement discussions. We are not going to 
non 21 
repeat the substance of the objected-to 
41.424 22 
testimony. 
coos* 23 
MR. SIMPSON: My point, I Just want it to be 
14454 24 
on notice --
00 4244 25 
MS. McCAWLEY: Yes. 
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best you can. 
A. 
Sure. All right Well, let me just --
that's a lot -- there's a lot of things to get Into on 
that. 
Let's start with the events of the last two 
days, the deposition of Mr. Dershowitz, which in my mind 
demonstrates repeated false statements that were made by 
Mr. Dershowitz. 
Let's begin with the overarching point about 
00 41 10 10 
the deposition of the last two days. I've been 
co to 11 
practicing law — law since about 1986. And In my 
0041 x. 12 
experience, I have never seen a more evasive effort to 
00 41 30 13 
avoid answering questions, and to essentially run out 
OD 41 14 14 
the dock so that detailed questions could not be asked 
ocie xi 15 
by my attorney. And I witnessed over the last two days, 
CIO 41 41 16 
Mr. Dershowitz was asked a series of very simple 
ne 41 17 
questions; where were you on this day; or what's the 
00414 18 
name; or what time, things like that, and instead of, 
C04149 19 
you know, giving an — an immediate answer, he ended up 
004 53 20 
giving a very extended answer commonly punctuated with 
004151 21 
disparaging remarks that seemed to have nothing to do 
004/40 22 
with answering the question. 
00 4001 23 
So I drew the inference from that that 
nen 24 
Mr. Dershowitz did not want to answer questions over the 
mow 25 
last two days. 
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004255 1 
MR. SIMPSON: -- is If this witness starts 
woe 2 
saying anything about his communications or why 
C0000 3 
he -- he's coming to a conclusion, he's putting 
02 .02 4 
that forth as a basis, he has opened the door. 
moos 
5 
You can't put it forth and park and not let 
02 4107 
6 
me ask for a the discussions. 
00439I 
7 
MR. SCAROLA: You can -- you can proceed and 
40 4210 
8 
you know not to include privileged — 
wow 9 
THE WITNESS: Yes. 
C04113 10 
MR. SCAROLA: — communications. 
CO 0 13 11 
THE WITNESS: There was a newspaper that 
won 12 
reported 
a Florida business newspaper that 
coast 13 
promptly after Mr. Dershowitz said that Mr. Bores 
mom 14 
had made certain representations, a Florida --
00004 15 
respected Florida business newspaper immediately 
mom 16 
reported that David Boles had said, that was a 
soon 17 
false statement. 
1104231 18 
And in light of that, I now had David Boles 
coon 19 
saying that Mr. Dershowitz was making false 
wow 20 
statements under oath during the -- the 
corns 21 
deposition that occurred over the last two days. 
ream 22 
In addition to that, I had -- again, during 
eat« 23 
the deposition, I heard Mr. Dershowitz say that 
nom 24 
Attorney Bob losefsberg had said that -- words to 
soon 25 
the effect that he, losefsberg, did not believe 
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198 
004354 
004316
004440 
004440 
004402 
004404 
03 44 OB 
004409 
14344 13 
14144 17 10 
al 4414 11 
034421 12 
03 44 30 13 
00«N 14 
0044 31 15 
004434 16 
03443? 17 
OM* 18 
wan 19 
1:444.43 20 
Demo. 21 
4150 22 
cons> 23 
034459 24 
CO 44 SI 25 
v
2 
as an attorney who had 
3 
represented Miss Roberts based on public 
4 
information, and I knew that that would be a 
5 
gross violation of Mr. Josefsberg's 
6 
attorney/client obligations. And as a result of 
7 
that, it seemed to me that, once again, 
8 
Mr. Dershowitz was giving false Information under 
9 
oath in an effort to exculpate Nmself from the 
sex trafficking that he had been Involved with. 
In addition to that, I learned during the 
deposition on Thursday that it had, quote, not 
crossed my mind, close quote -- I believe that's 
a direct quote from Mr. Dershowitz -- to record a 
conversation with a woman allegedly named Rebecca 
who had allegedly made certain statements. That 
was on Thusday. 
And then yesterday, Friday, I learned that 
Mr. Dershowitz, not only had it crossed his mind 
to make a recording, he had, in fact, made such a 
recording; and in fact, had it transcribed; and 
in fact, turned it over to his attorneys. So, 
once again, I had what appeared to be a false 
statement under oath by Mr. DeS110Wit2 In an 
attempt to exculpate himself from the -- the sex 
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You know, I also have -- I would like to 
son 2 
refresh my recollection and If -- if counsel --
044410 3 
that's 
0044110 4 
MR. SCAROLA: You can refresh your 
co.,', 5 
recollection on anything you need to. 
may 6 
THE WITNESS: All right. I'd like to refresh 
vin it 7 
my recollection by looking at --
wen 8 
MR. SIMPSON: Actually, I -- I object to this 
m«n 9 
answer as nonresponsive. I haven't heard 
Hum 10 
anything about flight logs once. 
Han 11 
MR. SCARpIA: You can continue. 
N«33 12 
THE WITNESS: These -- you know, these all 90 
ea MST 13 
to the statements. 
00602/ 14 
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
oven 15 
Q. 
You're looking at a document? 
ton 16 
A. 
Yeah. Let's mark it as an exhibit if you'd 
034432 17 
like. This Is a memory aid to me. 
004434 18 
Q. 
Did you prepare It? 
can 19 
A. 
Yes, I did. All right. Let's see. At page 
CO 44 42 20 
119 of a rough transcript that I saw prepared of 
0..c« 21 Thursdays testimon Mr. Dershowitz was asked. Quote: 
masa 22 
You know 
of the only person 
114 44 12 23 
who has sworn under oath that you were present at 
00 411$ 24 
Jeffrey Epstein's Palm Beach home with young girls, 
coatio 25 
right? Answer: No. 
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004303 
1 
trafficking that we -- we have evidence he has 
CO 44 03 
2 
been Involved with. 
mum 3 
The false statements or certainly misleading 
0044 12 
4 
statements continue. I suppose, some of these 
CO 44 14 
5 
could be a matter of judgment. The -- they raise 
eon,. 6 
grave concern to me. 
tom is 7 
One of them was that we had propounded an 
03420 8 
interrogatory requesting the basis f 
034473 9 
Mr. Dershowitz's statements ma 
034430 10 
had a criminal record. And he s 
mom 11 
she's admitted that she had sex with various 
00•4 17 12 
people, so that renders her a criminal, and 
tee a. 13 
something along those lines, which I didn't think 
11.04336 14 
was very accurate. 
wen 15 
But in any event, that was the answer he 
fonts 16 
gave. And then I teamed during the deposition 
0044 17 
in the last two days, that Mr. Dershowitz had 
0041 18 
he says shows that 
004540 19 
money from a 
4040 SO 20 
restaurant and had been criminally charged with 
own 21 
that. 
mast 22 
That was not produced to us during discovery, 
oasis. 23 
even though it would have been obviously 
004936 24 
relevant, and it was directly called for in the 
oust 25 
discovery that we were provided with. 
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01107 3 
0011 ss 
4 
CO ON 5 
GI 4147 6 
mom 
7 
199 
That seemed to me to be false or at the very 
least misleading testimony given that Mr. Dershowltz 
knew that Juan Alessi, among potentially other people, 
had identified him as having been in the presence of 
Jeffrey Epstein and young girls at the Florida mansion 
and, indeed, had identified a photograph of Virginia 
Roberts. 
O44721 8 
At page 164 of the transcript, Mr. Dershowitz 
Nan 9 
was asked, quote: All of the manifests that have been 
034224 10 
produced In this litigation, the ones that you say 
to 47 al 11 corroborate your testimony and exonerate you, 
NITS 12 
demonstrate that you never flew on Jeffrey Epstein's 
CO Or 13 
plane in the company of your wife, correct? Answer: 
004I 14 
No, that's not true. I don't know that. 
coon 15 
And, again, in the context of this litigation 
CO 47 40 16 
where the flight logs have been, as this question that 
to.,, 17 I'm answering tends to show, are so central for 
woo 18 Mr. Dershowltz to testify under oath that he didn't know 
Ham 19 
whether his wife was depicted on the flight log, struck 
Nose 20 
me as, at the very least, misleading information, but I 
Now 21 
concluded in my opinion was actually deliberately false 
004441 22 
information, particularly, given this litigation where 
004444 23 
he has produced, not only his own personal travel 
• 
24 
record, but all of his wife's travel records for the 
Na'.26 relevant period of time. 
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00 4015 
I 
SO I thought that was, again, a deliberate 
OC 48'1 2 
false statement under oath designed to exculpate him 
00411 /2 
3 
from his criminal involvement in this international sex 
CO 41 01 4 
trafficking ring. 
CO .4.17 
5 
At another point in the transcript, he was 
0341/3 
6 
asked, quote, -- no, I'm sorry. He stated, quote: I 
GOO 33 
7 
challenge you to find any statement where I said I have 
Con 35 
8 
never traveled outside the presence of my wife, close 
1041A 
9 
quote, representing that there would be no such 
eon 47 10 
statement there, when, in fact, I'm aware of an American 
*ono 11 Lawyer quotation attributed to him from January 15th, 
ens., 12 
2015, quote: I've been married to the same woman for 28 
00146: 13 
years. She goes with me everywhere, close quote. And, 
cc 44 v. 14 
again, you know, this — I understand sometimes people 
ox4is, 15 
may go away from their wife, but the American Lawyer 
13C 4211• 16 
was, obviously, on January 15th, 20 1 5, asking about: 
23 453. 17 
Well, have you been outside the presence of your wife in 
CO 4201 18 
situations where you might have interacted with Virginia 
03 4211 19 
Roberts? And that was the answer that he gave to the 
• 
20 
American Lawyer. 
▪ 43 11 21 
And based on -- on my review of the flight 
te 
22 
logs, I thought that was, again, a deliberate effort to 
con X 23 
obscure and try to exculpate himself from his 
to 1131 24 
involvement in this international sex trafficking ring. 
004199 25 
The — he also said yesterday: Nobody knows 
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logs. And could refresh my recollection here by 
o:
9a 
so.s. 
2 
looking at, I think it's docket entry 291 of our 
1235041 
3 
pleading that we presented on January 21st to 
093011 4 
Judge Marra where we provided specific itemized examples 
co son 5 
of inconsistencies between the Dave Rogers' flight log 
ten 
6 
and the — again, I'll call it, the Alan Dershowitz 
eosin 
7 
flight log, which was a selected presentation of flight 
cosito 8 
log information. 
003104 
9 
And when you see those inconsistencies, it 
becomes very hard to believe that all of the Information 
oasi in 11 
that was provided in those flight logs was accurate. So 
osiii 12 
when I take all of that information, put it together, I 
Donn 13 
believe that there's sufficient — I have a sufficient 
02.11.11 14 
basis for believing at this point in time, that 
sense 15 
Mr. Dershowitz has, indeed, provided inaccurate 
costa 16 
information to — to law enforcement agencies, or at a 
0051:25 17 
minimum has provided — has produced inaccurate 
rosin 18 
information through circumstances beyond his control. 
00 11':12 19 
But when he continually represents that the 
test s 20 
information is accurate and exonerates him, I believe 
cony 21 
that that Is a deliberately false statement. 
005145 22 
MR. SIMPSON: Move to strike the answer
onto 23 
the nonresponsive portion of the answer. 
/044 24 
MR. SCAROLA: Which portion is that? 
coo., 25 
MR. SIMPSON: 99 percent of it. I think at 
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201 
0241 u 
1 
about Prince Andrew and Virginia, except for the two of 
cons 
2 
them. And, again, I thought that was at a minimum, 
CO.," 
3 
deliberately mis -- misleading information and more 
C04941 
4 
likely deliberately false information, because 
00 4141 
5 
Mr. Dershowitz was aware of the photograph and had long 
0049 .7 
6 
been aware of the photograph that shows Prince Andrew 
eon% 7 
with his arm aroun 
ing next to a 
man 8 
beaming Glenn Max 
Ived in this 
LOOM 
9 
international sex trafficking organization. 
won 10 
And in the circumstances of that photograph, 
own 11 
it seems quite likely that the photographer who took 
00500. 12 
that picture was the head of the international sex 
sown 13 
trafficking ring, Jeffrey Epstein. And so for him to 
town 14 
say that only two people knew what went on was, again, 
re se .4 15 
deliberately false information, because I know he is the 
sow', 16 
attorney for Jeffrey Epstein, and he could have asserted 
015022 17 
attorney/client privilege over that, said, I can't get 
co ma 18 
into my communications with my client about what he was 
011022 19 
doing with Prince Andrew. 
DOWN 20 
But instead he said, no ono knows what 
C01021 21 
happened, other than those two people In circumstances 
pra 30 31 22 
where it was quite clear that there would have been 
so ws 23 
others who would have been aware of that. 
03 WM 24 
Now, the question is: Why do I think the --
ono). 25 
the -- you know, there are inaccuracies in the flight 
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51.12 
2 
costa 3 
cosi ss 4 
005117 
5 
COM.) 6 
03 OP 
7 
CO St03 8 
nom 
9 
0055“ 10 
tuss le 11 
<ono 12 
cows 13 
nun 14 
• 1730 15 
Dawn 16 
won 17 
01120/ 18 
0,1241 19 
as aa 20 
wens 21 
sun 22 
eta% 23 
cease 24 
fie 1300 25 
203 
the end, we got to the flight logs. 
move to strike the nonresponsive portion. 
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
O. 
Mr. Cassell, you came here today looking for 
an opportunity to give that statement; did you net? 
A. 
If it was relevant to an answer I was giving, 
yes. 
Q. 
The answer to my question is, yes, you came 
here today looking for a question to which you could 
respond with that prepared statement? 
A. 
I was prepared to give that — I anticipated 
that a very good attorney for Mr. Dershowitz might ask a 
question where that would be relevant. And if that 
question were asked and I was given the opportunity to 
make that statement, I wanted to be prepared to give it 
In the most accurate way that I could. 
MR. SIMPSON: I would like the reporter to 
mark as Exhibit -- are we up to 4 -- Exhibit 4, 
the document that Mr. Cassell was referring to. 
I'll let the reporter do that. 
THE WITNESS: Okay. 
(CaSSell'S1.13. Exhibit NO. 4 - document 
produced by the witness was marked for identification.) 
MR. SIMPSON: I just want to make that part 
of the record. 
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BY MR. SIMPSON: 
Q. Before Wednesday of this week, you had none 
001307 
3 of the information that you just described about 
WOW 4 
Professor Dershowitz's testimony, correct? 
006212 
5 
A. Correct. 
06112 6 
Q. I'm trying to look at my notes here of your 
won 7 
long answer, but one thing you Indicated that -- was the 
0330 8 
fact that Professor Dershowitz gave long answers Is 
00 034 9 
somehow indicative of false answers or perjury --
COOS 10 
coon. 11 
mom 12 
1130 13 
00040 14 
ono 15 
toss./ 16 
cosio 17 
ono 18 
oosiu 19 
muss 20 
003 6, 21 
NSW 22 
gown 23 
macs 24 
man 25 
MR. SCAROLA: That Is --
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
Q. -- is that right? 
MR. SCAROLA: That Is an absolute 
mischaracterization of the statement that 
Professor Cassell made. He did not refer to the 
length of the answers, but rather their 
nonresponsiveness. 
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
Q. Let me -- let me ask a different question. 
Go back to the flight logs themselves. 
A. Okay. 
Q. My initial question that got us going down 
this line was: Isn't it true that the flight logs 
themselves support Professor Derchow,tr' 
ny that 
he was never on a plane 
face 
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06106 1 
perfectly clear. 
006601 2 
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
006106 3 
Q. My question, Mr. Cassell, is: You reviewed 
oissii 4 the flight logs, correct? 
&sun 5 
A. Correct. 
Q. You reviewed them in some detail, correct? 
A. Correct. 
Q. Is there any entry on those flight lines 33 
C016 1? 9 
logs that you read as putting Professor Dershowitz and 
02021 10 
Miss Roberts on the same plane? 
03023 11 
A. No. 
003624 12 
Q. And so your testimony about questions about 
coups 13 the completeness and accuracy of those flight logs goes 
to whether the logs are -- let me rephrase that. 
00601 15 
The answer that you gave about your question 
00510 16 
as -- your views as to the completeness of the flight 
001 ./ 17 
logs and whether they may have been changed in some 
rout) 18 
ways, goes to whether those logs are conclusive, not 
0040 19 
whether they, in fact, support Professor Dershowitz's 
00414 20 
testimony that he was not on a plane with Virginia 
or.isci 21 Roberts? 
001003 22 
MR. SCAROLA: I'm going to object to the form 
costa 23 
of the question as vague and ambiguous. I don't 
micro 24 
understand it. 
otino, 25 
THE WITNESS: And I won't give a long answer, 
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00100 1 
but I -- I think, as I previously indicated, you 
ono 2 
can't just look at the face of these documents 
03014 3 
without -- with -- you know, against the context 
emir 4 
of an international sex trafficking ring that's 
351 5 
trying to cover up what it's doing. You can't 
tome, 6 
just look and documents and assume that they are 
sown 7 
100 percent accurate without that -- having that 
0000 8 
context in mind. 
emir 9 
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
come 10 
Q. And so am I right, that 
tows 11 flight logs, there's nothing showin 
0640 12 and Professor Dershowltz on the 
own 13 
A. That's correct. 
camas 14 
Q. And -- go on. 
insiso 15 
And so do 1 understand correctly that your 
C0 34 57 16 
position is that the flight logs may not be complete or 
00 5201 17 
may have been changed, but you do not dispute, that on 
00.10 18 
their face, they support Professor Dershowitz's 
00 62 62 19 
testimony? 
ossi 
20 
MR. SCAROLA: Objection. 
outs 21 
MS. McCAWLEY: Objection. 
Gas? to 22 
MR. SCAROLA: Compound. 
00014 23 
THE WITNESS: Could you just aggregate that? 
out. 24 
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
00710 25 
Q. You follow the objections very well. 
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0014 12 1 of the flight logs support that proposition? 
0114 20 
2 
A. The face of the flight logs for the relevant 
00140 3 
period of time, we can call it the hot period of time or 
0040 4 
whatever you want, did not reveal the presence of 
005.22 5 Mr. Dershowitz on those flights, yes. 
00140 6 
Q. Okay. So during the period -- well, 
00102 7 
actually, there's no flight log that shows Virginia 
12114 31 8 
Roberts and Professor Dershowitz on the same airplane, 
CO 012, 9 
correct? 
CO $07 10 
A. That's my understanding, yes. 
roust 11 
coun 12 
MR. SCAROLA: By name. You're -- you're 
03141 13 
MS. McCAWLEY: And It --
cos.° 14 
MR. SCAROLA: -- asking whether she was there 
or.40 15 
Identified by name? 
0140 16 
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
01412 17 
Q. To your knowledge, Isn't it correct that 
03 00 18 
there is no flight log that's been produced in this case 
eons. 19 
Professor Dershowitz and 
min 20 
me plane, as you read the 
cams. 21 
ig 
og. 
inn 22 
MR. SCAROLA: I'm sorry. Are you asking 
mum 23 
whether those same names appear on the flight log 
together? 
mum 25 
MR. SIMPSON: My question, I Chink, is 
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00sn 1 
A. I was thinking of that as well. 
COO n 2 
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
ton 3 
Q. 
Let me 
soy yi 4 
A. I wasn't --
so rn 
5 
Q. Let me --
aim 6 
A. -- following their answer. 
0047 n 23 7 
Q. Let me -- let me Just ask a different 
011717 
8 
question. 
00 67 22 
9 
A. Sure. Thanks. 
con, 10 
Q. 
You testified that you have -- at some 
wins 11 length, about why you question the accuracy of the 
an.. 12 
flight logs, correct? 
ono 13 
A. Correct. 
Nun 14 
Q. But I may be redundant, but you don't 
Huss 15 
question that what they show on their face supports 
testa 16 
Professor Dershowitz's testimony --
testa 17 
MS. McCAWLEY: Objection. 
costa 18 
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
00 6740 19 
Q. -- that he was not on a plane with Virginia 
glob 20 
Roberts? 
oats 21 
A. The 
you know, the — the sex trafficking 
wars 22 ring run by Jeffrey Epstein has produced Epstein flight 
tabu. 23 
how that -- that Dershowitz and 
405644 24 
not on the plane, so... 
tosses 25 
er to my question is, yes? 
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wino 1 
A. I recall his testimony to that effect, yes. 
Hint 2 
Q. 
And you testified that no support for that 
or • vi 3 
had been produced in discovery; Is that correct? 
iota* 4 
A. That's my understanding, yes. 
owe 
5 
Q. Isn't it true that in Mr. Alessi's 
on 
6 
deposition, he describes that under oath and says that 
04%23 7 it happened? 
06 SI 24 
8 
k 
I don't have a recollection of criminal 
0050 21 9 
charges having been discussed in the Alessi deposition. 
613431 10 
Q. Is it -- well, let me -- let me ask you: Is 
vises. 11 it your testimony that you understood that, in fact, 
resew 12 
Miss Roberts had been accused of stealing money from her 
04 0« 13 
employer? 
CO 54 4? 14 
MS. McCAWLEY: I'm going to object to the 
1•41 15 
extent it gets into any conversations that you 
40440 16 
had with Virginia on any of these issues. 
wiry 17 
THE WITNESS: Yeah, I'm trying to -- if your 
cassis 18 
question is about the Alessi depo, !don't --
eosin 19 
don't immediately recall him discussing --
mow' 20 
discussing them. 
01 on> 21 
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
nano. 22 
Q. If I represent to you that Mr. Alessi, in his 
el OW 23 
deposition, referred to a police report and an arrest of 
elan 24 
Miss Roberts, do you have any reason to question that? 
Quell 25 
MR. SCAROLA: Could we 
could we pull out 
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00 SI CO 1 
MR. SCAROLA: I'm sorry. 
062.404 
2 
THE WITNESS: Which question now? 
066414 3 
MR. SIMPSON: The question you just -- could 
cos„ 4 
you read back my -- my question and the answer? 
nu 
5 
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
4044 31 6 
Q. Let me ask it again. 
nn 
7 
A. 
Okay. 
COM 3, 8 
Q. 
That's fine. 
WYE 33 9 
A. I mean, I thought I was -
cow), 10 
MR. SCAROLA: There's no question pending. 
ono>. 11 
THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. 
001434 12 
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
31 13 
Q. 
What were you about to say? 
aura 14 
A. I was about to say that the records that they 
coon 15 
produced — I'm -- I'm sorry... 
001442 16 
Q. 
The records -- the records that were 
006442 17 
produced --
cow« 18 
A. On -- on their face I cannot lye you a 
owe 19 flight log that ha 
Alan Dershowltz 
024640 20 sitting next to each other, yes. 
seas, 21 
Q. 
And you also -- you also testified a moment 
re SO 5. 22 
ago that Professor Dershowitz in his testimony in the 
Gouty 23 
last couple of days, had testified tha 
re Se 03 24 
had been arrested for stealing cash; 
mow 25 
you recall that? 
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010414 4 
Of 40 IQ 5 
410021 6 
414021 7 
view 8 
>6 9 
211 
the deposition? And if you have got a reference 
in the deposition, lets take a look at it. 
MR. SIMPSON: I'm just asking for his 
recollection right now. The document win speak 
for itself. But I want to --
MR. SCAROLA: Yes, it will. 
MR. SIMPSON: He -- he made a very serious 
accusation. I would like to get an answer to my 
question. Does he recall whether, in that 
sun, 10 
deposition that all the parties in this case 
010020 11 
have, Mr. Alessi said under oath, that she had 
o, 0047 12 
been arrested and charged with stealing from her 
0103413 
employer. 
emu 14 
THE WITNESS: When you -- the question built 
town 15 
in a serious accusation, the -- the -- the -- the 
orsin 16 
statement I was making is that we had propounded 
014042 17 
an interrogatory to Mr. Dershovdtz saying: 
mesa 18 
what's the basis for your assertion that 
014045 19 
Miss Roberts had a criminal record? And that 
e. ma 20 
answer didn't refer to an Alessi depo. If it 
21 
this is one of the problems that I'm having. 
010243 22 
When -- when -- you know, when you come into 
el ease 23 
a deposition, both sides are supposed to turn 
Titan 24 
everything over. And then if I get a question 
WOO 25 
about, well, what if -- you know, were relying 
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010101 
010101 
010103 
01010/ 
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010111 
01 Ot '2 
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OW 24 14 
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cows 20 
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mow 25 
2 
3 
4 
5 
MR. SIMPSON: I move -- I move to strike as 
6 
nonresponsive. 
7 
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
8 
Q. My question went to whether -- let me back 
9 
up. If -- if I'm -- unless I misunderstood you --
MR. SCAROLA: The question was: Did he 
recall the contents --
MR. SIMPSON: I'm asking the question. 
MR. SCAROLA: -- of the Alessi deposition. 
MR. SIMPSON: I'm withdrawing it. I will ask 
a new question. 
MR. SCAROLA: Okay. Thank you. 
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
Q. I understood you in your -- the long answer 
that you gave a while ago to suggest that Professor 
Dershowitz had either testified falsely or failed to 
provide relevant information on which he was basing his 
testimony about Miss Roberts's arrest; is that right? 
A. Yes. 
Q. And that assertion would be incorrect if 
there's a deposition in this case that all the parties 
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on this piece of the Alessi depo and It's not In 
the answers to Interrogatories, it's hard for me 
to -- to give an answer to that. So -- so that's 
the -- that's the concern I have. 
213 
morn 1 have that include that Information? 
a, 0146 2 
MR. SCAROLA: Mr. Simpson, there was an 
on 3 
express reference to an answer to interrogatory, 
moo 4 
and the absence of any reference to an arrest for 
010105 
5 
theft in your client's sworn answer to 
mono 6 
interrogatory. That's --
el 02 00 7 
MR. SIMPSON: We -- we --
0102 11 
8 
MR. SCAROLA: -- exactly what the testimony 
01 02 12 9 
was. 
MR. SIMPSON: If you object to the form, 
alma 11 
please just object to the form. I think it's a 
ohms 12 
proper question --
urea 13 
MR. SCAROLA: I -- I object " 
010212 14 
MR. SIMPSON: -- in our discovery response. 
ones 15 
MR. SCAROLA: -- I object to your 
°Ina 16 
misrepresentation of the earlier testimony. I'm 
01 02 21 17 
sure it was not intentional, and that's why I'm 
outs 18 
calling It to your attention so that we don't go 
010227 19 
down a rabbit trail. 
01.02,3 20 
MR. SIMPSON: I'm not going down any rabbit 
con 21 
trail. I'm really -- objection to the form will 
01.0231 22 
preserve it. 
mien 23 
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
01W3? 24 
Q. My question is whether you were aware at the 
time that Professor Dershowitz testified that, in fact, 
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010246 
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onto 
mom 
morn 
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1 
Mr. Alessi had also testified previously about the 
2 
arrest of Miss Roberts for stealing from her employer? 
3 
A. I didn't recall that. If that's in there, 
4 you're -- you're making a representation, and I know 
5 you're a fine lawyer, so I'll accept your 
6 representation. 
7 
I didn't recall that when he was testifying 
8 
a -- a day or two ago on that subject. 
9 
MR. SCAROLA: We have been going for about an 
woo 10 
hour. Is It time to take a break? Is that 
01021, 11 
convenient for you? 
oin 12 
MR. SIMPSON: We can take a break now. 
010321 13 
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the video 
wean 14 
record, 9:35 a.m. 
(Thereupon, a recess was taken.) 
maul 16 
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the video 
record, 9:47 a.m. 
01 MO 18 
THE WITNESS: I need to take two minutes, if 
I may, and just supplement the long answer that I 
gave about the series of things. 
ei ion 21 
By looking over my checklist, I noticed that 
oi on 22 
item 5 of the 12 items was not given during my 
al no 23 
testimony. I'm --
oi no 24 
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
01 13 44 25 
Q. I don't -- I'm not going to ask about item 5. 
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It's in the record as part of your -- your -- your --
011ie 2 
A. i would like to just supplement --
DI Isse 3 
MR. SCAROLA: That's fine. Mars fine. If 
plan 4 
you don't want to hear it, that's okay. 
arise, 5 
THE WITNESS: I'd like --
011133 6 
MR. SCAROLA: Just as long as it's noted that 
01 15 34 7 
there was an inadvertent omission. 
011410 8 
THE WITNESS: Yeah. 
alma 9 
BY MR. SIMPSON: 
of ism 10 
Q. As part of -- I'm going to go back actually 
0 not 11 to --
o nu 12 
A. Sure. 
0114.02 13 
Q. -- the questions I was asking. One question 
01 1640 14 about the -- the flight logs again. 
see 15 
A. Okay. 
of wc. 16 
Q. It's true, is it not, that you have no 
0. 412 17 
personal knowledge as to whether Professor Dershowitz or 
ova 15 18 
some other member of Jeffrey Epstein's defense team 
01 0121 19 
prepared those logs for production to the government? 
anon 20 
A. I don't have personal knowledge of 
of 
o, an 21 that, that's right. 
0„020 22 
Q. And you would agree, would you not, that it's 
on 33 23 
the duty of a defense counsel to represent a client 
el an 24 
zealously within the bounds of the law, correct? 
01 10 40 25 
A. Correct. 
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