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1 meant by that?
2 A. She meant that they were building a relationship
3 with her, giving her things, taking her places. And then
4 usually when the grooming happens, an offender will -- once
5 they gain that trust, they will make the relationship Lurn
6 sexual.
7 Q. Now, you testified just a moment ago that
A described to you that she felt at this time period that they
were grooming her. Is that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Is that something that she realized at the time
12 when she was 14, or is that something that she's described
13 to you now?
14 A. Something she's described now. She didn't realize
15 that at the time.
16 Q. So we'll talk a little bit more about grooming in
17 a moment, but just to give context are you familiar with the
18 term grooming based on your experience investigating crimes
19 involving a sexual exploitation of minors?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Generally speaking, -- you were touching on this a
22 moment ago, but if you just could explain in full. What is
23 grooming?
24 A. Grooming is when someone builds a relationship
25 with a child. They find a vulnerability or a need and then
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3 they work on gaining a child's trust, and then oftentimes
2 gaining a parent's trust. Once they have that trust, they
show that in ways that they care about them by giving them
4 gifts and promises. And then once that's established, they
then turn the relationship sexual, oftentimes making sexual
C comments and normalizing the behavior.
Q. Now, during these visits that you've been
0 describing that told you about, did say whether
Epstein ever gave her anything?
10 A. Yes, she did.
11 Q. What did he give her?
12 A. He gave her cash. Sometimes he'd tell her to give
13 the cash to her mom because he knew that they needed it. He
14 paid for her voice lessons as well.
lb Q. Now, you were describing how has
16 characterized these visits now. But based on your
17 conversations with her, at the time did she feel that these
18 visits were strange at all?
19 A. She thought they were strange, but Maxwell
20 normalized it for her. She was like a cool older sister and
21 made comments like this is what grownups do.
22 Q. You used the phrase cool older sister. Is that a
23 phrase that used to describe how she felt about
24 Maxwell at the time and what Maxwell was like?
25 A. Yes, those are her words.
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1 Q. Did there come a time -- these visits when
2 saw Maxwell topless by the pool?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What did she tell you about that?
5 A. She was a little taken back, but Maxwell just
6 acted normal.
7 Q. Did tell you about an incident several
8 months into this arrangement when she was alone with Epstein
9 in the pool house?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And when they were alone together, did Epstein ask
12 what she wanted to do with her life?
13 A. He did.
14 Q. What did she say?
15 A. She said she wanted to be an actress and a model.
16 Q. How did Epstein respond?
17 A. He told her that he was best friends with the
18 owner of Victoria Secret. Told her that she would have to
19 have photographs taken and that she got to be comfortable in
20 her underwear, and not to be a prude. When she asked what
21 that meant, he pulled her to his lap and masturbated.
22 Q. What was her reaction?
23 A. She felt paralyzed. She froze.
24 Q. After this incident, did encounters with
25 Epstein begin to include sexual contact?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Over time, did the sexual abuse escalate?
3 A. It did.
4 Q. From what she's described to you, did the abuse
5 include Epstein digitally penetrating
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did it include Epstein using a vibrator on her?
8 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did she describe to you that there were times when
10 Epstein would direct to massage him while he
11 masturbated?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did explain to you what her memories are
14 like of the abuse?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What did she say about that?
17 A. She said that it happened so often that it all
18 kinds -- it all runs together for her. That it's hard to
19 separate out some of the different instances of abuse.
20 Q. You were describing how explained to you
21 that the abuse began. Did that occur based on what
22 told you within the first year that she met Epstein and
23 Maxwell?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, did also describe to you that once this
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1 abuse started, Epstein would also bring her into his massage
2 room in the house?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And were there times where he did this where there
5 are other women present including Maxwell?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Was abused during those episodes?
8 A. Yes, she was.
9 Q. During these group encounters what were a:“
10 the adult women wearing?
11 A. They were usually just in their underwear.
12 Q. Once they were all in the massage room, how would
13 these episodes generally start?
14 A. They would generally start with one of the girls
15 massaging Epstein. was usually massaging his feet.
16 Maxwell was kind of teasing the girls; she'd grab the girls'
17 breasts and she would direct the girls on what to do.
18 Q. When these episodes would start, in general was
19 Epstein generally lying face down on the massage table?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What_ would happen as things progressed generally
22 speaking trom what she described to you?
23 A. When Epstein would decide he was kind of done with
24 the regular massage, he would turn over to his back and he'd
25 grab whichever girl he wanted to either touch him or
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1 whatever girl he wanted to touch.
2 Q. Did these episodes include sex acts that over time
3 in various instances included Epstein masturbating, Epstein
4 receiving oral sex, and Epstein engaging in intercourse?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You were describing for a moment what told
7 you about Maxwell's role during these group encounters.
8 Would Maxwell sometimes guide the women and give
9 instructions about what to do?
10 A. Yes, she would.
11 Q. What would typically do during these
12 episodes?
13 A. She would try to not look at Maxwell because she
14 gave off that sister vibe so it felt weird for her. She
15 would try to be invisible in that room so they would ignore
16 her as much as possible.
17 Q. In the beginning when was approximately 14
18 or 15, would she generally begin by just massaging Epstein's
19 feet?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Is that something she was told to do?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did she you mentioned that she tried to be
24 invisible. Was -- I believe that was your testimony?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. And over time -- has she described to you that
2 over time she believes she became more involved in the
3 sexual activity which varied in each encounter?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q• Were there times -- let me rephrase that. How did
6 -- you touched on this for a moment, but just to be clear,
7 how did describe Maxwell's attitude during these
8 incidents?
A. It was very casual. She acted like this was
10 normal. She gave off that vibe to her and -- yeah.
11 Q. Did that make her feel more comfortable with what
12 was happening?
13 A. It did.
14 Q. Was sometimes fully nude during these
15 episodes?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And during these episodes, did the abuse include
18 Epstein touching s breast?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did it include directing to touch Epstein's
21 genitals?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Beginning when was approximately 14, does
24 she begin to travel with Epstein and Maxwell to New York
25 City on occasion?
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1 A. Yes, she did.
2 Q. Was that to the property you testified about
3 earlier? The townhouse on the Upper East Side?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. When traveled to New York City, did she stay
6 at Epstein's townhouse in New York City?
7 A. Yes, she did.
8 Q. Did she recall that Maxwell and Epstein took her
9 shopping on one of her early trips to New York City?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did she remember them buying her anything?
12 A. She recalled them buying her white cotton
13 underwear. Her description was that they were, like, little
14 girls underwear.
15 Q. From ages 14 to 17, did Epstein ask to
16 periodically fly to New York for weekends at that townhouse
17 in New York?
18 A. T'm sorry, say it again?
19 Q. You testified that she began traveling to New York
20 City aL age 14. Did she then periodically travel to New
21 York City in a similar manner trom ages 14 to 17?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Were there times when she traveled on those trips
24 when she flew on Epstein's private jet?
25 A. Yes.
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1 O. Did she also sometimes fly commercially?
2 A. Yes, she did.
3 Q. Was Maxwell sometimes present on the trips to New
4 York?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You testified earlier that was sexually
7 abused in Palm Beach. Did she describe to you that she was
8 also sexually abused on these trips to New York?
A. Yes, she did.
10 Q. Did Maxwell encourage to go on these trips?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What does -- what did tell you about
13 her memory of how these trips were arranged?
14 A. She recalled that Maxwell was usually the one that
15 would schedule her flights. If she was flying commercially,
16 she would schedule the flights, sometimes calling her mother
17 to schedule.
18 Q. Was that her general impression of how they were
19 arranged?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. In addition to the trips to New York City that you
22 just described, did also remember traveling at least
23 once to Epstein's ranch in New Mexico?
24 A. Yes, she did.
25 Q• Did she remember whether or not she was sexually
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1 abused in New Mexico?
2 A. She couldn't recall. She couldn't remember.
3 Q. In general, how would get to the airport in
4 Florida when she would fly on Epstein's jet? What did she
5 describe to you?
6 A. Usually a driver one of Epstein's drivers would
7 pick her up from her house and take her to the airport.
8 Q. Now, you testified earlier that you reviewed
9 flight records for Epstein's private jet. is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And have you reviewed records from the 1990's to
12 see if that there -- whether there's a person named
13 listed on the records?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q• Turning to the next slide. Is this an excerpt
16 from those records?
17 A. Yes, it is.
18 Q. And does the red arrow point to -- just one
19 moment. Does the red arrow point to a November 11th, 1996
20 flight?
21 A. Yes, it does.
22 Q. And is this a -- does this flight log reflect that
23 it was a flight from Palm Beach, Florida to Teterboro, New
24 Jersey?
25 A. Yes.
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Q. Is there a private airfield in Teterboro, New
Jersey?
A. Yes, there is.
Q. What's it called?
A. Teterboro Airport.
O. Are the passengers listed on this entry J.E.?
A. Yes.
Q. Are the -- do the entries also include pluL
9 friend, Jeff Schantz (ph.), family, (ph.) child,
10 (ph.), and
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Was -- based on your awareness of
13 date of birth and the date of this flight, was 16 on
14 the date of this flight?
15 A. Yes, she was.
16 Q. Turning to the next slide. You testified earlier
17 about Teterboro Airport. What are we looking at on this
18 slide?
19 A. This is directions from Teterboro Airport to
20 Epstein's residence here in Manhattan.
21 Q. So based on your review of this map, if someone
22 were to fly into Teterboro Airport and travel to New York
21 City, would they -- would the most natural root be to travel
24 from Teterboro Airport and crossing into New York through
25 Manhattan?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Turning to the next slide. Is this also an
3 excerpt from the flight records that you've reviewed?
4 A. Yes, it is.
5
Q. And does this show a May 9, 1997 flight from
E Teterboro, New Jersey to Santa Fe, New Mexico?
7 A. Yes, it does.
Q. And are the passengers listed on this log J.E.,
9 G.M.,
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Based on your knowledge of birthdate and
12 the date of this flight, would have been 16 on the
13 date of this flight?
14 A. Yes, she would've been.
15 Q. Turning to the next slide. Is this also an
16 excerpt from the flight records?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And does the red arrow point to a flight entry on 19
May 3rd, 1998?
2C A. Yes, it does.
21 Q. Based on the airport codes, does this reflect that
22 there is a flight on that date from Palm Beach, Florida to
23 Teterboro, New Jersey?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And are the passengers listed on this log J.E.,
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1 G.M., E.T., , Glen (ph.), III, (ph.),
2 (ph.), (ph.), (ph.)?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Based on your knowledge of birthdate and
5 the date of this flight, would have been 17 on this
6 date?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Am I correct that you testified earlier that in
9 addition to sometimes flying on Epstein's private jet, she
10 also traveled on commercial airlines, is that correct?
11 A. Yes, it is.
12 Q. Based on your review of these flight logs, does
13 every flight entry list the name of every single passenger,
14 or are there times when a passenger is noted female?
15 A. There's time where a passenger is just noted
16 female.
17 Q. I'm going to talk to you about two examples of
18 that. Turning ahead two slides. Looking at slide 18, does
19 this reflect a January 3rd, 1995 flight where the flight log
20 says J.E., two females?
21 A. Yes, it does.
22 Q. And do the two entries below also just list female
23 next to the initials J.E.?
24 A. Yes, they do.
25 Q. Turning to the next slide, slide 19. Is this
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1 another example of an entry like that? Focusing on the
2 entry on February 12th, 1995?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Does that entry also say female?
5 A. Yes, it does.
6 Q. Now, you testified that sometimes flew on
7 commercial airlines and that arrangements for her travel
were made for her to fly commercially for these trips. Is
9 that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Have you been able to obtain commercial flight
12 records?
13 A. We tried. We were not able to obtain those
14 records.
15 Q. Why is that?
16 A. Airlines do not keep records past a certain year.
1/ Q. Does recall group sexualized massages
16 involving Epstein and Maxwell in both the New York and
19 Florida residences during the time period we've been talking
20 about?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You testified earlier about the time that Epstein
23 and Maxwell would spend together and the activities that
24 they were involved in. During this time period, did
25 have occasions to talk with Maxwell?
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1 A. She -- I'm sorry, can you ask the question again?
2 Q. During the -- beginning when she was 14 when she
3 began spending time with Epstein and Maxwell and through the
4 years, did often have conversations with Maxwell about
5 her life?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did they talk about that often?
8 A. They did.
9 Q. Did Maxwell ask about her family, her
10 classes, and other aspects of her life?
11 A. Yes, she did.
12 Q. You testified earlier that just before she turned
13 18, moved to New York City. Is that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did she go to school there in New York City for
16 her senior year?
17 A. Yes, she did.
18 Q. What school did she go to?
19 A. She went to
20 Q. What is
21 A. They cater to individuals who want to pursue
22 careers in the arts.
23 0- Have you reviewed records from
24
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. If you could turn to slide 17. Can you please
2 explain for the grand jury what we're looking at here?
3 A. This is an excerpt from application to III
4 On it is listed who is
5 financially responsible for her, and that is
6 Jeffrey Epstein.
7 Q. From what told you, did Maxwell encourage
8 to accept Epstein's financial help?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. When moved to New York City who was she
11 living with?
12 A. She lived with her mother and brother in
13 apartment.
14 Q. Did Epstein help pay for her rent?
15 A. He did.
16 Q. During that year, her senior year of high school
17 when she was in New York City, did remain in contact
with Epstein?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What was the nature of their contact like during
21 this time period?
22 A. During this time he was still sexually abusing
23 her.
24 Q. Did that continue to occur in his townhouse in
25 Manhattan that year?
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1 A. Yes, it did.
2 Q. What happened at the end of her senior year of
3 high school?
4 A. She moved to Los Angeles to pursue a career in
5 acting.
6 Q. Did she get a job as an actress when she was 18?
7 A. She did.
8 Q. Has lived in Los Angeles and worked as an
9 actress on television ever since then?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. After she moved to Los Angeles did she continue
12 being in touch with Epstein?
13 A. For a short period of time.
14 Q• Did she ultimately break contact with him?
15 A. Yes, she did.
16 Q. Is currently pursuing a civil lawsuit
17 against Maxwell and Epstein's estate?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Have you talked with about whether when she
20 was a teenage gill when all of this was happening whether
21 she told anyone that she was being sexually abused?
22 A. Yes, she said she didn't tell anyone. She felt
23 like she couldn't. She -- the -- nothing was talked about
24 outside of that room, so it made it so that she couldn't
25 talk about it. And then she also -- her mother is Middle
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1 Eastern, and her mother raised her that women are supposed
2 to do what they're told even if someone is beating you.
3 And when she was 13 and her father passed, she was
4 she went to a guidance counselor at school to talk about
5 it, and her mother found out about it and smacked her. So
6 she felt like she couldn't talk to anyone about it.
7 Q. Did 's mother encourage her to accept
8 Epstein's financial assistance?
9 A. Yes, she did.
10 Q. Have you become aware that in 2005, police
11 officers from the Palm Beach Police Department executed a
12 search warrant at Epstein's house at the El Brill() Way
13 address in Palm Beach?
14 A. Yes.
lb Q. Have you reviewed some of the materials seized
16 during the search?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did they find massage tables ana sex toys?
19 A. Yes, they did.
20 Q. Did they find any photographs of
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Was one of the photographs signed by
23 A. Yes, it was.
24 Q. Did it say
25
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. During your interviews with did tell
3 you how she felt about Epstein and Maxwell in the '90's when
4 she was a young girl?
5 A. She did. She expressed that she felt like they
6 loved her, she felt like they were her family. That they
7 supported her and that she felt she was made to feel like
8 that she needed to be grateful to them.
9 Q. Okay. Did she tell you that she felt like they
10 were trying to help her?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Have you talked with about how she feels
13 about this now?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. What was demeanor like when she described
16 to you what Epstein and Maxwell had done to her?
17 A. She was upset. She recognized that now, it's
18 affected her life to a great degree. She's struggled in
19 relationships with opening up to people and trusting people,
20 both personal and professional relationships.
21 Q. Did she tell you that she struggled to tell anycne
22 what had happened to her for most of her adulthood?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. When was the first time that you interviewed
25
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1 A. Last fall.
2 Q• Was that the first time she'd ever reported this
3 to law enforcement?
4 A. Yes, it was.
5 Q. Now, you testified earlier about your interviews
6 with who worked at Epstein's Palm Beach house.
7 Did he remember a girl named coming to the house
8 during that time?
9 A. Yes, he did.
10 Q. Did he recall , Maxwell, and Epstein being in
11 the Palm Beach house together?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What was his understanding of why was there?
14 A. He thought that Epstein was helping her, that's
15 what Epstein had told him, and had told him that
16 Epstein was helping her.
17 Q. Did he ever observe Epstein interacting with
18 physically?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What did he see?
21 A. He saw Epstein kiss cheek and pat her on
22 the bottom.
23 Q. Did he have any knowledge about what was happening
24 with Epstein or Maxwell when he wasn't present?
25 A. He didn't.
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